Re: sortof OT: wiki software

2009-06-15 Thread koder
I have had success with using PmWiki. I have set up three or four sites with it. One was for a group of non technical people. I received zero complaints about difficulty using it. It can be set up with different levels of security. There are add-on modules for increased capability though I have

Re: Can Firefox be updated without affecting the rest of my system?

2009-05-29 Thread koder
On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 19:16 -0700, Jason Holtzapple wrote: > --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Josef Lowder wrote: > > Is it possible to upgrade Firefox > > without causing any effect on my operating system? > > And if the upgrade does not work, could I restore the old > > Firefox version? > > Why not just

Re: ot - What I learned from the History Channel

2009-05-25 Thread koder
Dr Johnson was affiliated with Case Western when he found Lucy in '74. He came to ASU in 1998. Lucy's skeleton was brought to Cleveland and later returned to Ethiopia. They have a reconstruction of Lucy's skeleton on exhibit in Cleveland. On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 22:44 -0400, mike havens wrot

Re: mysql_connect won't when run from web server

2009-05-25 Thread koder
Have you ruled out difficulties with file locations, permissions and such ilk? Do we know what environment these files are being run under? For a file to be run from a browser under Ubuntu you need permissions set to user www-data UID:GID 33:33, and located in a directory that localhost can find

Re: Ubuntu Jaunty Update Pop-Under

2009-05-09 Thread koder
Oh, THE Ted? I think that personal attacks are put of place in a group like ours. I would like to respond with a more general list of things that are somewhat related. I am not sure where to address them, but since this thread was started, I will tack it on here. Thanks for the link to the bug.

Re: iButton anyone?

2009-04-09 Thread koder
You have an interesting gadget there Tim. I have never heard of them before, but I did a Google search and it looks like it can be nearly anything. Alan was correct in saying that more information would be needed. The manufacturer says that the iButton is "a peripatetic extension of the computer

Kernel Panic

2009-03-19 Thread koder
Can anyone give me an idea of where to go to recover from this kernel panic? Harold The overall goal was to put together a lab system for the RHCE course I am taking. The immediate project is learning to use fdisk to create LVM groups. I am not tryig to get someone to do my homework for me, bu

Re: flash bios dos usb stick

2009-02-27 Thread koder
7;t go to sleep. The screen saver NEVER comes on (except in test mode). It worked fine with Dell's 7.x system. I use Linux as my desktop because I want a hobby. It's like driving a classic car. On Thursday 2009-02-26, koder wrote: > Are you absolutely certain that you need to flash

Re: flash bios dos usb stick

2009-02-26 Thread koder
Are you absolutely certain that you need to flash your BIOS to get your system to run? I am running a Dell 530 with Ubuntu 8.04. I can't believe that all of us are going to have to flash a BIOS update to upgrade to 8.10. What so you know that I don't? What problems did you encounter that have bro

Re: Is there a gmail customizing "front end"

2009-02-22 Thread koder
Try switching your view to "Standard HTML" The button is located at the bottom of your mail list. See if that meets your needs. -Original Message- From: Joseph Sinclair Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Is there a gmail customizing "front

Re: Access Control Lists

2009-02-14 Thread koder
Add this link as well, it is specific to Ubuntu 8.04 and contains a caution about acl usage under Ubuntu: http://beginlinux.com/server_training/server-managment-topics/1038-ubuntu-804-access-control-lists I tried the same thing and got the same results as you. So, that's not it at all. Then

Re: Which Distro

2009-01-12 Thread koder
mike, Live CDs run most of the software from the CD. If you click on a seemingly inconsequential button and it has to load a utility of some size into memory, the system will pause while it is reading and loading the program you have just called. That would be inherent in live CDs. There are diff

Re: Set KDE as default in Ubuntu? Differences

2009-01-12 Thread koder
I switch between the two desktops with some regularity. >From the user's standpoint the switch is almost just cosmetic. Like most things involved in computers it is the almost that gets you. There are some apps that run better under one than the other. Some of the KDE specific apps will not play

Re: Set KDE as default in Ubuntu?

2009-01-10 Thread koder
Try, in /etc/X11/default-display-manager setting it to /usr/sbin/kdm for KDE or /usr/sbin/gdm for Gnome Harold -Original Message- From: Alan Dayley Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Set KDE as default in Ubuntu? Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:56:57

Missing e-mail

2008-12-23 Thread koder
have their content. The folder /home/koder/.evolution/mail/local has a file Inbox with zero bytes that says it was last accessed today. It looks like the whole Inbox folder was trashed and the folder was rebuilt on restart. Is this common? Should I be doing some kind of daily backup of the files

Re: rsync error message

2008-12-18 Thread koder
Did you capture rsync's output? It should tell you exactly which file it could not deal with. Tee the output and grep for error may give you info. In addition to the problems Lisa mentioned, rsync also can choke on linked files. Harold -Original Message- From: Robert Holtzman Reply-To:

Re: RadioShack to sell $100 netbook

2008-12-16 Thread koder
-Original Message- From: KevinO Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: RadioShack to sell $100 netbook Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:08:51 -0700 Josef Lowder wrote: > RadioShack to sell $100 netbook > > http://blogs.usatoday.com/technologylive/2008/

Re: calendar volunteers needed

2008-12-08 Thread koder
I would be willing to work on this project. Since I am not able to attend meetings right now, finding more volunteers would be challenging. Harold moin moin, the webdev team needs a couple of people to help maintain the PLUG calendar. Essentially it requires paying attention to the webdev ma

Re: Hallmark E cards attack

2008-11-18 Thread koder
I too have received three of them Harold -Original Message- From: Jamie Shackles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us, [EMAIL PROTECTED], ricky b <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jill Bain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ricky Beza

OT: What it takes to be a success

2008-11-15 Thread koder
Discussion on what it takes to be a success: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/nov/15/malcolm-gladwell-outliers-extract/print --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail

Re: PCB/chip aspect

2008-11-06 Thread koder
I believe it is the IBM 390 that runs its whole CPU and a good deal of ancillary electronics inside of a distilled water container for cooling purposes. There are a couple of postings of overclockers running PCs in an oil bath for the same reason. -Original Message- From: mike havens <[EM

Re: Processor Temperature

2008-11-06 Thread koder
Correct me if I am wrong, but would it not be easier to use a can of air to chill the chip? I believe that is what we used to use to check of thermal errors. Putting a PC in the fridge raises visions of shorts from condensation on unwarmed portions of the board. -Original Message- From:

Re: Voting rules....

2008-11-03 Thread koder
lose. Harold -Original Message- From: Nathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list To: PLUG Discussion List Subject: Re: Voting rules Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:30:26 -0700 On Monday 03 November 2008 23:14:39 koder wrote: > If that was a

Re: Voting rules....

2008-11-03 Thread koder
If that was a a serious question, no, unless you are planning on parking it within 75 feet of the door. -Original Message- From: Nathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Voting rules Date: Mon, 3 Nov

Re: Business Apps on Linux?

2008-10-26 Thread koder
Sorry for blank, I must have pushed the wrong button. I was trying to make a pitch for My/SQL as being one of the best and most versatile business applications there is. I realize that is can't be used as is, but the front ends to turn it into an accounting. inventory, personal management, or web

Re: Business Apps on Linux?

2008-10-26 Thread koder
-Original Message- From: mike enriquez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Business Apps on Linux? Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:33:01 -0700 What Business Applications do you know of that run on Linux. I am going to be speaking to gr

Re: OT: hardware question

2008-10-12 Thread koder
I have a couple of old systems that are going to recycling Thursday that are available for the asking. I haven't opened them up in years and am not sure what is in them. I think I may have an ISA and a PCI with one at leas having both. I will look if anyone cares. -Original Message- From

Re: OT: hardware question

2008-10-12 Thread koder
I have seen this happening because of a software issues. Test to see if the tray will open as the computer boots up just before Windows starts loading. That will distinguish between software and hardware. A hardware failure will not open under any circumstance. -Original Message- From: Va

[Fwd: Re: problem installing Ubuntu in Windows]

2008-09-14 Thread koder
Dennis, You seem to be doing something different than I think we are accustomed to. WUBI is designed to install inside of a directory of you XP system. This would be analogous to running Windows inside of a folder in a Linux system using WINE. Since I am only running Ubuntu on my system I am u

Re: Can't post to email lists

2008-09-07 Thread koder
Alan, It looks like your plug-dev ID is set to adayley at adtron.com. Each list seems to have its own login list, if that is not a redundancy. Try changing it to your g-mail account http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-devel Harold -Original Message- From: Alan Dayley

Re: ot: browser

2008-09-03 Thread koder
FAQ or not, Face Book has the same claim. They make no bones about their goal of repackaging your information individually or in the aggregate and reusing it or reselling it in any way they want. Think resume references, NSA et al. NSA has been collecting data for several years using collections g

Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?

2008-09-03 Thread koder
i On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:14 PM, koder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Don't forget to factor in safety. One good wreck and your cost per mile > can go up with great rapidity. I am getting tired of attending funerals > of bikers. It is only two so far, but that is two too many.

Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?

2008-09-02 Thread koder
Don't forget to factor in safety. One good wreck and your cost per mile can go up with great rapidity. I am getting tired of attending funerals of bikers. It is only two so far, but that is two too many. I doubt you have ever had a problem. . . yet. Harold -Original Message- From: Dan L

Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?

2008-08-29 Thread koder
If the utility company would pay consumers for energy above and beyond the amount they generated for personal use that is dumped back to the grid, we would have the incentive for installing solar and wind powered electric generating equipment. Under present procedure you can put excess power into t

Re: PlaneShift on Ultimate Ubuntu

2008-08-23 Thread koder
Just a WAG, but does it need to be installed by root? If the app needs certain OS services it must have root level to do it. I am still learning this stuff, but look into it. Harold -Original Message- From: Joshua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list

Re: upgrading ubuntu

2008-08-21 Thread koder
I would that it were true. Harold -Original Message- From: Francis Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: upgrading ubuntu Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:09:49 -0700 On Thu, 2008-08-21 at 06:44 -0700, David wrote: > I have an

Re: OT: Windows serial port sniffing

2008-08-18 Thread koder
few years ago... There should be some tutorials on Google... http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms810467.aspx Good luck, Eric On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, koder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is a program which I am pretty sure is free that will look at the

Re: OT: Windows serial port sniffing

2008-08-18 Thread koder
There is a program which I am pretty sure is free that will look at the voltage levels on the serial port and display them as a graphic display. it was intended to allow you to use the serial port as a voltmeter. The program is made available by the man who writes the Evil Genius series of hardwar

Re: OT: penguin knight

2008-08-17 Thread koder
Well -- yes, but an accurate headline "Penguin Knighted On Behalf of Norway" is not as short, attention getting, or as easy to roll off the tongue. The whole operation smells fishy to me. Harold -Original Message- From: der.hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussi

Re: GCC C/C++ application to run on Windows

2008-08-15 Thread koder
I would like to qualify Jon's comment. It is possible to write applications that run on both Windows and Linux, if they are compiled separately and access resources required by each of the respective operating systems. You will need to understand programming in both environments. Writing an appli

Re: Looking for a good and inexpensive Linux Sys Admin class

2008-08-13 Thread koder
Paradise Valley will be doing a sys admin in the spring, but they want a Linux OS course that they are offering this fall as a pre-requisite Only three seats left for fall course. Harold -Original Message- From: Mark Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To:

RE: Fwd: Wiki/Apache Issues

2008-08-13 Thread koder
I think based on your previous postings that you may find that the name for the apache account is www-data. On Ubuntu it is set to an ID number of 33:33. How much of the system is running? I can't speak to your distro, but with Ubuntu, all of the log files are put in place when Synaptic installs

Re: backup apps

2008-08-12 Thread koder
I use rsync I posted a script on PLUG a bit ago that I use in exactly the same environment as yours. In the same thread I believe there were a few alternate suggestions. Harold -Original Message- From: Robert Holtzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: plug-

Re: Annoying error message.

2008-08-10 Thread koder
See if these links are of use to your situation http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/ubuntu-help/108515-unable-save-bookmarks-dolphin.html https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dolphin/+question/15881 Harold -Original Message- From: Trent Shipley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL

Re: scribus image import

2008-07-22 Thread koder
If you put a frame for an image on your work surface (There is an icon to turn that on) then draw a frame for an image the Import (Ctrl + D) will become active. -Original Message- From: der.hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: quatsch Subject: scribus imag

Re: backup software recommendations?

2008-07-12 Thread koder
here: ## ### # set 'now' to time and date for filename now=BUDD$(date +%y%m%d)-$(date +%H%M) mkdir /media/_bu/$now sudo rsync -avh /var/www/ddwiki/wiki.d/ /media/_bu/$now/wiki.d.bu | tee /media/_bu/$now/bu.log rsync -avh /home/koder/ /media/_bu/$now/koder

Re: Tee Shirts?

2008-07-12 Thread koder
I like the Penguin in the Desert myself. Harold -Original Message- From: Lisa Kachold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Tee Shirts? Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:01:25 -0700 (PDT) A Hopi Kachina penguin, wh

Re: OT: What's the best HDTV antenna setup?

2008-07-06 Thread koder
-Original Message- From: Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT: What's the best HDTV antenna setup? Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 18:15:39 -0700 Has anyone seen this article? http://www.hdtvmagazine.

Re: OT: What's the best HDTV antenna setup?

2008-07-06 Thread koder
-Original Message- From: Vaughn Treude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT: What's the best HDTV antenna setup? Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:58:12 -0700 Josef Lowder wrote: > What do recommend as the best HDTV antenna setup

OT Air Scooter

2008-07-06 Thread koder
> > If it becomes a regular event for me, someone will have to get me a > smoking deal on a scooter, electric car, or car pool with me. > > :) http://www.airscooter.com/pages/airscooter_specs.htm I wonder if that would be any more efficient than a car... Tuna * * * If my math is correct th

Re: OT: What's the best HDTV antenna setup?

2008-07-04 Thread koder
In principle, yes. Put the antenna where it will get the best reception. Play with it to determine where that is. Perhaps what you may need is a 'T' connector, depending on your setup. Radio Shack and Fry's have lots of options. Try to use as few connectors as possible. Each one saps signal str

Re: OT: What's the best HDTV antenna setup?

2008-07-04 Thread koder
Try this link. http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-hype.php It says in essence there is no such thing as a HDTV antenna. An antenna is an antenna. Signal boosters will amplify the bad along with the good. Try it without and see what you get. You can always spend money later. Harold

Re: laptop power button advise

2008-06-30 Thread koder
Pressing and holding the power button to power the computer on any contemporary desktop or laptop prevents the OS from writing the information it needs to store to do a graceful shutdown. That process is only used if you have a severe lockup. It has the possibility and perhaps even probability of

Re: are my mails making it?

2008-06-22 Thread koder
It worked once in a row. -Original Message- From: Technomage Hawke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: PLUG-Discuss List Subject: are my mails making it? Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:29:32 -0700 seems that either my mails are making it and no one has answered, or the

Re: limited or no connectivity

2008-06-22 Thread koder
Mike, It is not clear what you can and can't get going. How many of the troubleshooting steps are you able to get through before failure? You said you can't connect to Linksys from laptop. Can you connect to the router from other PCs? Can you PING 127.0.0.1? If you connect laptop using wired con

Re: OT? (maybe) http://komando.com/ promotes Floss on radio

2008-06-18 Thread koder
Kim used to have a column in one of the free computer newspapers back in the days when they had such things. The reference you are looking for is accessed from the columns tab. It was in a column on "10 free alternatives to popular pricey programs" http://www.komando.com/columns/index.aspx?id=504

Re: I miss you guys!

2008-06-18 Thread koder
It is nice and flattering to be missed. It is Florida. The Protestant work Ethic ofttimes gets lost in the heat and humidity. (Wow, how many people did I manage to offend at one crack with that comment?) Perhaps we can engage in some sort of mutual exchange for the benefit of all. By the way,

Re: OT Mobilization Orders

2008-06-06 Thread koder
Kevin, MI, the ultimate oxymoron Keep safe Hope they let you take a computer so you can keep in touch. Harold --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: htt

Re: Why is email I send to plug from gmail not delivered?

2008-06-04 Thread koder
I hope this is not a dumb question. I know you guys have been scuffling iwth this issue for a while. The PLUG account will only accept inbound mail from the account you have listed as your account. I can't send PLUG mail through my g-mail account as long as I have it set to my Earthlink address. I

Re: Cox Internet connectivity..

2008-05-31 Thread koder
Quoting: "If you really want a bulletproof connection, get a dedicated T1 line (or faster)." Correct me if I am wrong, but based on my experience in another city, our T1 connection physically came from the local phone company. Is it not the same in most cities, with the exceptions of some that ha

Re: Virus info!

2008-05-25 Thread koder
There is a feature in XP to clear out temp files. Either run it or clean them out manually. There are several. Don't forget the Restore feature. That is notorious for filling up a hard drive. if you turn Restore off, restart computer and defrag you can recover the space. Have fun Harold On Sun

Re: mini computer

2008-05-24 Thread koder
I think Fry's can accommodate you with external HDD housings that would explicitly meet your needs. One model is designed to stack so you can easily put as many of them on the table as you like. On the flip side the cost for the housings, or another type of case would probably make it a poor inves

Re: OS & hardware issues?

2008-05-18 Thread koder
To echo and expand on Michael March, You need to make sure memory will port to new board. How old are your hard drives? If they are near end of service life, you may want to reconsider. Are you looking at IDE vs. SATA? Some of the new computer boxes are priced low enough that it is debatable as

Re: OpenSSH Key replacement

2008-05-18 Thread koder
desktop using ssh from a script. I think/hope I am on it. Harold On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 18:36 -0700, der.hans wrote: > Am 14. Mai, 2008 schwätzte koder so: > > > After upgrading my OpenSSH and ancillary files using the Ubuntu update I > > can no longer use sftp to logon between my

Re: Microsoft joins OLPC

2008-05-17 Thread koder
I am not sure if this is OT or not. Other posts have noted that OLPC will have to increase the specs on the hardware by nearly a factor of two to run Windows. MS also insists on sharing they joys of Windoze's lack of security with the underdeveloped peoples of the world. On the flip side, those

OpenSSH Key replacement

2008-05-14 Thread koder
After upgrading my OpenSSH and ancillary files using the Ubuntu update I can no longer use sftp to logon between my desktop and laptop both located inside of my DSL router. It worked yesterday, in fact I just learned to use it yesterday before updating. Now I get: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sftp [EMAI

Should I update NOT AUTHENTICATED security updates?

2008-05-13 Thread koder
Should I update NOT AUTHENTICATED security updates? I am running Ubuntu 7.10 The automatic updater told me that I have updates available. The following packages came in and when I tried to install them I received a message that they can't be authenticated! Doing this could could allow a malicio

Re: re-installing shuttle

2008-04-28 Thread koder
I understand it does not have a CD/DVD. It is designed to use an external DVD. Can it boot from the external CD/DVD. I am sure we could find one for you to use if it can. Harold On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 14:30 -0700, Michael March wrote: > Where did you buy your KPC? I have heard the fan is loud,

Re: re-installing shuttle

2008-04-28 Thread koder
Will it boot from an/the external DVD? On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 13:40 -0700, der.hans wrote: > moin moin, > > I bought a KPC and want to convert it to Ubuntu. > > It doesn't have a CD/DVD drive. > > I tried getting it to boot from a USB thumb drive and from a CDROM > connected via USB, but those

Re: OT: need some help with fuel cells

2008-04-25 Thread koder
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 13:22 -0700, Technomage-hawke wrote: > On Thursday 24 April 2008, koder wrote: > > > > > Recreational vehicles and yachts use solar panels to power some decently > > sized storage batteries. If you put up enough of them you can run a > > comput

Re: OT: need some help with fuel cells

2008-04-24 Thread koder
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 10:47 -0700, Technomage-hawke wrote: > On Thursday 24 April 2008, Stephen P Rufle wrote: > > I remember reading about this guy in Wired magazine. > > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.03/play.html?pg=9 > > http://www.siei.org/mainpage.html > > > > The cost of his system

Re: How to save a phone voice-mail message to computer?

2008-04-04 Thread koder
On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 15:08 -0700, Josef Lowder wrote: > . > Ah ha. I think I actually have one of those, > but I believe it only facilitates recording to > a tape recorder. I was hoping for a way to > direct connect via USB to my computer. I don't > have a sound card in my computer. > >

Re: How to handle OT & spam on a mail list

2008-03-28 Thread koder
On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 12:43 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > On 27 Mar 2008 21:50:58 -0700, Dennis Kibbe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mail clients, like Evolution & T'bird are not designed to handle mail lists > > where you receive a large volume of mail that can clog your inbox and which > > is

Re: AZ's own Gabrielle Giffords votes to increase foreign work visas

2008-03-16 Thread koder
On Mon, 2008-03-17 at 02:59 +, Michael Havens wrote: > On Sunday 16 March 2008 8:43 pm, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > There is no doubt in my mind that the upper management > > of CS departments nationwide are helping this cap increase move along, > > as this is seen as a way to keep their depar

Re: hardware questions, Ubuntu and Dell

2008-03-10 Thread koder
For what it is worth, I would like to echo the Rune Lord's sentiments. I have the Dell 530 Inspiron desktop and 1420 Inspiron laptop and am quite pleased with both of them. A great part of my buying decision was the desire to encourage DELL with Linux distribution and whatever drivers are needed