ag 18 januari 2016 20:36
To: Programming forum
Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Definition: Frame of an argument
Among old timers, "frame" has an historical ambiguity.
(...)
To document
the latter, Dyalog resurrected "outer shape". Dyalog also
resurrected
"major cell"
With one notable exception!
Henry Rich
|Dan said:
|
|For the sake of completeness, it’s worth saying again that a verb of
rank N can never see a noun of greater than rank N; rank |will chop up
the noun before it’s ever fed to the verb as input.
ems have maximal rank (_1) and all atoms have minimal rank (0).
R.E. Boss
> -Original Message-
> From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com]
> On Behalf Of Raul Miller
> Sent: woensdag 20 januari 2016 20:36
> To: Programming forum
> Subject: Re:
Roger wrote:
> "Empty frame" made sense when a frame was the axes of an array left over
> after you've accounted for the cell.
I don’t remember who introduced me to the idea, but I was first encountered
them, enchanted by the definitions:
- Axis: index in the shape of an array
- Dimension
gt; >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Raul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:17 PM, R.E. Boss
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -Original Message-
> >>>>
Raul wrote:
> I think the maximal cell would be the entire array?
Maybe.
Or maybe the terminology was introduced to cover degenerate cases*.
In general, a verb of rank N (as a non-negative integer) can never see a noun
with rank greater than N, but it is certainly possibly for it to see nouns
E. Boss wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Roger Hui
>>>>> Sent: maandag 18 januari 2016 20:36
&g
gt;> Raul
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:17 PM, R.E. Boss wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com]
>>>> On Behalf Of Roger Hui
>>>> Sent: ma
.jsoftware.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Roger Hui
>>> Sent: maandag 18 januari 2016 20:36
>>> To: Programming forum
>>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Definition: Frame of an argument
>>>
>>> Among old timers, "frame" has an historical ambiguit
Sent: maandag 18 januari 2016 20:36
>> To: Programming forum
>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Definition: Frame of an argument
>>
>> Among old timers, "frame" has an historical ambiguity.
> (...)
>> To document
>> the latter, Dyalog resurrected "
> -Original Message-
> From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com]
> On Behalf Of Roger Hui
> Sent: maandag 18 januari 2016 20:36
> To: Programming forum
> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Definition: Frame of an argument
>
> Among ol
Everyone has raised some interesting points.
I agree that J benefits when robust discussions are had before changes are
made. Learning the underpinnings of the status quo is a worthwhile
exercise—even if change doesn't follow.
Good luck with your lab. It sounds like a neat idea.
Cheers,
Matt
On
Hey Matt,
It's all good. The ideas breathe better when they are passed around. :-)
My plan is to develop a lab that explains these concepts a bit more clearly.
In that process, I may find that the "inner/outer" terms make for much
easier understanding, but I also know that having to struggle to
zero frames". Read the 1986 paper and you can decide for
> yourself
> > >>>> whether "empty frame" or "zero frame" is the better name.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sun, Jan
>>>> The verb (frame) as well as the Zero Frame concept are defined in [0]
> >>>>>
> >>>> by
> >>>
> >>>> Roger.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [0] Rank and Uniformity
> >>>>
ve rank; frame; cell shape
>>>>>>> ┌─┬─┬───┐
>>>>>>> │2│2│3 4│
>>>>>>> └─┴─┴───┘
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Ro
;>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Roger Hui <
> rogerhui.can...@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I did not define them; Roland Pesch did: Empty Frames in SHARP APL
> >>>>>> <http://
Sorry typo. DOJ.
--
regards,
GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24
gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3
gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --armor --export 4434BAB3
--
wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> The verb (frame) as well as the Zero Frame concept are defined in [0]
> >>>>>
> >>>> by
> >>>
> >>>> Roger.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [0] Rank and Uniformity
> &
gt;>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Jose Mario Quintana <
>>>>>> jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The verb (frame) as well as the Z
t;>>> by
> >>>
> >>>> Roger.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [0] Rank and Uniformity
> >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/rank.htm
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Ken C
..@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My guess is that it would help if we could imagine that we had a
>>>>>>
>>>>> primitive
>>>>>
>>>>>> called 'frame' in the same way as we have one called
;>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/rank.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Ken Chakahwata <
>>>>> kenchakahw...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My guess is that it would help if we could imagine t
at 7:11 PM, Ken Chakahwata <
>>>>> kenchakahw...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My guess is that it would help if we could imagine that we had a
>>>>> primitive
>>>>>> called 'frame' in the same
f we have an array of shape (x,y,z), and we stipulate cells of rank
3,
then the frame is presumably empty? Not sure of this... but anyhow,
just
a
thought...
Enjoy
ken
-Original Message-
From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com]
On
Behalf Of Henry Rich
Sent: 17
;>>
>>>>> My guess is that it would help if we could imagine that we had a
>>>> primitive
>>>>> called 'frame' in the same way as we have one called 'shape' i.e. $
>>>>> Then one way to get to the precise meaning of f
r to then return the
> > appropriate
> > > > frame.
> > > > If we have an array of shape (x,y,z), and we stipulate cells of rank
> 3,
> > > > then the frame is presumably empty? Not sure of this... but anyhow,
> > just
> > > a
> >
ls of rank 3,
> > > then the frame is presumably empty? Not sure of this... but anyhow,
> just
> > a
> > > thought...
> > >
> > > Enjoy
> > > ken
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Programming [mailto:progra
Henry,
I have been working on a video version for labs within jqt for a few months. It
seems to me that the use of animation may make some of the concepts a little
easier to grasp. Producing these materials is time intensive but for
foundational elements of the language it may be worth the effo
,y,z), and we stipulate cells of rank 3,
> > then the frame is presumably empty? Not sure of this... but anyhow, just
> a
> > thought...
> >
> > Enjoy
> > ken
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.js
NuVoc's FramingFill essay is not intended as its discussion of frame.
The plan was to have an essay introducing verb rank and frame. We (Ian
Clark & I) made a couple of attempts, but never got a version that would
lead the new user securely to the goal. The job really needs Ian's
touch, but
-
> From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com] On
> Behalf Of Henry Rich
> Sent: 17 January 2016 23:59
> To: programm...@jsoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Definition: Frame of an argument
>
> The terminology I use is an (x by y by z) arra
rogramming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com] On Behalf
Of Henry Rich
Sent: 17 January 2016 23:59
To: programm...@jsoftware.com
Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Definition: Frame of an argument
The terminology I use is an (x by y by z) array of cells, or an array of cells
with frame (x,y,
The terminology I use is an (x by y by z) array of cells, or an array of
cells with frame (x,y,z), emphasizing that the frame is a (part of the)
shape rather than an array.
Henry Rich
On 1/17/2016 6:16 PM, Raul Miller wrote:
Hmm... ok, reviewing
http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/frame_and_
Hmm... ok, reviewing
http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/frame_and_cell.htm 'frame' does
get used that way.
I was thinking of the frame as having a shape rather than being the shape.
Then again, since you can think of an array as being (for example) an
(x,y,z) frame of cells, I do not think that
I disagree, on the grounds that the frame is a prefix of the shape;
therefore a list; therefore its shape is always a 1-atom list. The
frame can be empty, with shape (,0), but the shape of the frame cannot
be empty.
Henry Rich
Raul wrote:
I think you meant your first sentence to be "It s
Very good point about verbal shorthands. The word "empty" is very likely to
trip up newcomers. Once they learn one meaning, they're less likely to look
out for others. Perhaps even experienced J'ers sometimes get tripped up?
Though they'll more easily work out the consequences of each possible
inte
Empty arrays are perfectly clear. They are exactly those arrays with shape
containing at least one '0'.
I had not considered applying a verb with argument rank 'n' to a noun 'a'
of rank >:n where (>:n){$a is 0. Such an application has frame ,0. Applying
the verb to a noun of rank n is entirely dif
I think you meant your first sentence to be "It sounds like your
original confusion was between empty arguments (where the frame
contains 0) and a frame with an empty shape (which simply means that
the verb operates on a single cell)."
Empty shape is very different from empty of values.
But our t
It sounds like your original confusion was between empty arguments
(where the frame contains 0) and an empty frame (which simply means that
the verb operates on a single cell).
http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/EmptyArguments
has more on this topic.
Whenever an earnest user has confus
Thanks Roger. That's perfect. I see what you mean: frames with 0 sometimes
make sense, and zero frames prevent unnecessary awkwardness and ambiguity
in these cases. Very good examples!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Roger Hui
wrote:
> Empty frame, or more accurately zero frames, if it is said
x=: 10 20 30 in the examples.
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Roger Hui
wrote:
> Empty frame, or more accurately zero frames, if it is said to be for
> anything, is to allow edge cases, the case where the frame contains a 0, to
> work without a lot of exceptions, without the programmer having
Empty frame, or more accurately zero frames, if it is said to be for
anything, is to allow edge cases, the case where the frame contains a 0, to
work without a lot of exceptions, without the programmer having to write
extra code. An example hopefully illustrates this point.
x ,"1 y=: i.3 4
10
J language is highly consistent, an empty frame is required when the rank
of a verb is larger than or equal to the rank of its arguments.
An empty array is different from nothing as illustrated by some empty array
jokes.
On Jan 15, 2016 2:35 PM, "Matthew Baulch" wrote:
> And the dictionary defin
And the dictionary defines frame such that it may be empty? I'm most
interested in whether, supposing this is the case, allowing empty frames
serve (an)other purpose(s) in the structure of the language.
Apologies if my original phrasing was unclear.
Every decision in the design of J seems ver
Amen
-Original Message-
From: Programming [mailto:programming-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com] On Behalf
Of bill lam
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 12:21 AM
To: programm...@jsoftware.com
Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Definition: Frame of an argument
The J dictionary is always correct.
Пт
The J dictionary is always correct.
Пт, 15 янв 2016, Matthew Baulch написал(а):
> Fair enough, though I can't work out whether the dictionary agrees with
> NuVoc here or not. Either way, which definition of frame is correct?
> On 15 Jan 2016 3:48 pm, "bill lam" wrote:
>
> > For J implemention, t
Fair enough, though I can't work out whether the dictionary agrees with
NuVoc here or not. Either way, which definition of frame is correct?
On 15 Jan 2016 3:48 pm, "bill lam" wrote:
> For J implemention, the only authority is the J dictionary since
> it defines the J language. You need not worr
For J implemention, the only authority is the J dictionary since
it defines the J language. You need not worry anything else.
http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dictb.htm
Пт, 15 янв 2016, Matthew Baulch написал(а):
> I assume the intended definition of 'frame', in relation to verb argumen
I assume the intended definition of 'frame', in relation to verb arguments,
is that given on
http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/FramingFill
I'm just trying to understand verb/argument combinations with empty
frame--the most common case, I suppose.
From the wording "each argument is ... an
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