[Python-Dev] Fwd: [Import-SIG] Where to discuss PEP 382 vs. PEP 402 (namespace packages)?

2012-03-12 Thread PJ Eby
Ugh; this was supposed to be sent to the list, not just Guido. (I wish Gmail defaulted to reply-all in the edit box.) -- Forwarded message -- From: PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [Import-SIG] Where to discuss PEP 382 vs. PEP 402

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP czar for PEP 3144?

2012-03-12 Thread Peter Moody
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Peter Moody pmo...@google.com wrote: Just checking in: On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: At the very least: - the IP Interface API needs to move to a point where it more clearly *is* an IP Address and *has* an associated

Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: [Import-SIG] Where to discuss PEP 382 vs. PEP 402 (namespace packages)?

2012-03-12 Thread Fred Drake
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:43 AM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote: I wish Gmail defaulted to reply-all in the edit box. There's a lab for that. :-) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.    fdrake at acm.org A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.    --Samuel Langhorne

[Python-Dev] PEP 417: Adding mock to the Python Standard Library

2012-03-12 Thread Michael Foord
Hello all, At the Python Language Summit adding the mock library to the Python Standard Library was discussed and agreed. Here is a very brief PEP covering the decision and rationale. All the best, Michael Foord PEP: 417 Title: Including mock in the Standard Library Version: $Revision$

[Python-Dev] Job! Python Engineer position

2012-03-12 Thread Watts, Wendy
Hello, my name is Wendy; I am a IT recruiter for vtrIT which is a division of Volt Workforce Technical Solutions located in San Francisco. I have an urgent Senior and Junior Python Engineer positions open for a client located in CA. I am reaching out to you in finding out your status of new

Re: [Python-Dev] Job! Python Engineer position

2012-03-12 Thread Brian Curtin
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 15:40, Watts, Wendy wwa...@vtrit.com wrote: Hello, my name is Wendy; I am a IT recruiter for vtrIT which is a division of Volt Workforce Technical Solutions located in San Francisco. I have an urgent Senior and Junior Python Engineer positions open for a client located

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 417: Adding mock to the Python Standard Library

2012-03-12 Thread Gregory P. Smith
+10 for the record. (given we all already agreed upon this in the summit :) make it so. On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.ukwrote: Hello all, At the Python Language Summit adding the mock library to the Python Standard Library was discussed and agreed.

Re: [Python-Dev] Job! Python Engineer position

2012-03-12 Thread Watts, Wendy
Great. Thank you. Wendy Watts IT Recruiter VTRIT 100 First Street, Suite 200 I San Francisco, CA 55120 t: 415.536.5844  I f: 415.536.2845 wwa...@vtrit.com | vtrit.com -Original Message- From: Brian Curtin [mailto:br...@python.org] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 4:01 PM To: Watts,

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 417: Adding mock to the Python Standard Library

2012-03-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
More to the point, I am approving the PEP. We chatted briefly at the sprint and I just want to emphasize that the external version should not grow new features before the stdlib version has those same features (we don't want users complaining that the stdlib version is no good). Also, if you have

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: give the AST class a __dict__

2012-03-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 17:56:10 +0100 benjamin.peterson python-check...@python.org wrote: http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/3877bf2e3235 changeset: 75542:3877bf2e3235 user:Benjamin Peterson benja...@python.org date:Mon Mar 12 09:46:44 2012 -0700 summary: give the AST class a

[Python-Dev] New PEP numbering scheme

2012-03-12 Thread Brett Cannon
It came up at the sprints about how to choose new PEP numbers. It was agreed that the newest, *lowest* number should be used (e.g. 418) and not the next highest number (e.g. 3156). I have already updated PEP 1 to reflect this. ___ Python-Dev mailing list

[Python-Dev] PEP 335 officially rejected

2012-03-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
We've had many discussions in the past about PEP 335 and they always ended in non-action. I'm cutting any future discussions short and officially rejecting the PEP. Amongst other reasons, I really dislike that the PEP adds to the bytecode for all uses of these operators even though almost no call

Re: [Python-Dev] New PEP numbering scheme

2012-03-12 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Mar 12, 2012, at 07:33 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: It came up at the sprints about how to choose new PEP numbers. It was agreed that the newest, *lowest* number should be used (e.g. 418) and not the next highest number (e.g. 3156). I have already updated PEP 1 to reflect this. +1 -Barry

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 417: Adding mock to the Python Standard Library

2012-03-12 Thread Michael Foord
On 12 Mar 2012, at 16:31, Guido van Rossum wrote: More to the point, I am approving the PEP. We chatted briefly at the sprint and I just want to emphasize that the external version should not grow new features before the stdlib version has those same features (we don't want users

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 417: Adding mock to the Python Standard Library

2012-03-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Michael Foord mich...@voidspace.org.uk wrote: On 12 Mar 2012, at 16:31, Guido van Rossum wrote: More to the point, I am approving the PEP. We chatted briefly at the sprint and I just want to emphasize that the external version should not grow new features

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: give the AST class a __dict__

2012-03-12 Thread Victor Stinner
benjamin.peterson python-check...@python.org wrote: http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/3877bf2e3235 changeset:   75542:3877bf2e3235 user:        Benjamin Peterson benja...@python.org date:        Mon Mar 12 09:46:44 2012 -0700 summary:   give the AST class a __dict__ This seems to have

[Python-Dev] Review of PEP 362 (signature object)

2012-03-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
I'm very sympathetic to this PEP. I would accept it outright except I have a few quibbles on details, and some questions and remarks. - There are several examples of poor English grammar, perhaps from your co-author. Can you fix these? (Do you need me to produce a list?) - You're using an

Re: [Python-Dev] Review of PEP 362 (signature object)

2012-03-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote: - I don't quite understand how bind() is supposed to work. Maybe an example would help? (It could also use some motivation. I think this is meant to expose a canonical version of the algorithm that maps arguments to

Re: [Python-Dev] Review of PEP 362 (signature object)

2012-03-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 20:51, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote: I'm very sympathetic to this PEP. I would accept it outright except I have a few quibbles on details, and some questions and remarks. - There are several examples of poor English grammar, perhaps from your co-author. Can

[Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Andrey Petrov
Hi Pythonistas, I've had the pleasure of speaking with Guido at PyCon and it became evident that some of Python's included batteries are significantly lagging behind the rapidly-evolving defacto standards of the community—specifically in cases like urllib and urllib2, which lack important

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread R. David Murray
I don't like any of the suggested wordings. I have no problem with us recommending other modules, but most of the Python libraries are perfectly functional (not leaky or some other pejorative), they just aren't as capable as the wiz-bang new stuff that's available on PyPI. --David

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Eli Bendersky
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:07, R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com wrote: I don't like any of the suggested wordings.  I have no problem with us recommending other modules, but most of the Python libraries are perfectly functional (not leaky or some other pejorative), they just aren't as

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread C. Titus Brown
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:22:45AM +0200, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:07, R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com wrote: I don't like any of the suggested wordings. ?I have no problem with us recommending other modules, but most of the Python libraries are perfectly

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Eli Bendersky
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:25, C. Titus Brown c...@msu.edu wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:22:45AM +0200, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:07, R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com wrote: I don't like any of the suggested wordings. ?I have no problem with us recommending

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread C. Titus Brown
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:42:55AM +0200, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:25, C. Titus Brown c...@msu.edu wrote: I see the point, but as a reasonably knowledgeable Python programmer (intelligent? who knows...) I regularly discover nifty new modules that replace stdlib

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Brian Curtin
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 19:23, Andrey Petrov sha...@gmail.com wrote: What such a snippet might look like: Batteries are included with Python but sometimes they are old and leaky—this is one of those cases. Please have a look in PyPI for more modern alternatives provided by the Python

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Glenn Linderman
On 3/12/2012 8:48 PM, C. Titus Brown wrote: I feel like there's a middle ground where stable, long-term go-to modules could be mentioned, though. I don't spend a lot of time browsing PyPI, but I suspect almost everyone spends a certain amount of time in the Python docs (which is a testimony to

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Andrey Petrov
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 19:23, Andrey Petrov sha...@gmail.com wrote: What such a snippet might look like: Batteries are included with Python but sometimes they are old and leaky—this is one of those cases. Please have a

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Terry Reedy
On 3/12/2012 10:23 PM, Andrey Petrov wrote: I've had the pleasure of speaking with Guido at PyCon and it became evident that some of Python's included batteries are significantly lagging behind the rapidly-evolving defacto standards of the community—specifically in cases like urllib and urllib2,

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Brian Curtin
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 21:14, Andrey Petrov sha...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 19:23, Andrey Petrov sha...@gmail.com wrote: What such a snippet might look like: Batteries are included with Python but sometimes

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: I would rather we figure out how to encourage authors of advancing packages to contribute better implementations of existing features and well-tested new features back to the stdlib module. I would not. There are many

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: Downloads don't mean the code is good. Voting is gamed. I really don't think there's a good automated solution to tell us what the high-quality replacement projects are. Sure, these are imperfect metrics. But not having any

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Eli Bendersky
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 06:43, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: Downloads don't mean the code is good. Voting is gamed. I really don't think there's a good automated solution to tell us what the high-quality

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Matt Joiner
Definitely think some library vetting needs to occur. Superior alternatives do exist and are difficult to find and choose from. Stuff like LXML, Requests, Tornado are clear winners. The more of this done externally (ie PyPI the better). I still think a set of requirements for official approval

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Senthil Kumaran
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 07:23:11PM -0700, Andrey Petrov wrote: I've had the pleasure of speaking with Guido at PyCon and it became evident that some of Python's included batteries are significantly lagging behind the rapidly-evolving defacto standards of the community specifically in cases like

Re: [Python-Dev] Docs of weak stdlib modules should encourage exploration of 3rd-party alternatives

2012-03-12 Thread Andrey Petrov
Dear authors of Python's standard library: Please accept my deepest apologies. We didn't mean for the messaging to come off as unappreciative for you work, and I am very sorry for that! Without the aforementioned urllib/httplib/etc I would have never made it as far as to build my own libraries