Re: [Python-Dev] Revert #12085 fix for __del__ attribute error message

On 9/21/2013 6:15 PM, R. David Murray wrote: On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 17:16:41 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote: When an AttributeError is raised in a __del__ method, it is caught and ignored, except that it is not completely ignored but is replaced by a warning message sent to stderr. Example: >>&

[Python-Dev] Revert #12085 fix for __del__ attribute error message

When an AttributeError is raised in a __del__ method, it is caught and ignored, except that it is not completely ignored but is replaced by a warning message sent to stderr. Example: >>> class C(): def __del__(self): raise AttributeError >>> c=C() >>> del c Exception AttributeEr

Re: [Python-Dev] License() release list is imcomplete; intentional?

On 9/17/2013 11:48 AM, MRAB wrote: On 17/09/2013 16:37, Terry Reedy wrote: On 2.7, >>> license() return a text that includes a complete list of releases from 1.6 to 2.7 and stops there Release Derived YearOwner GPL-

[Python-Dev] License() release list is imcomplete; intentional?

On 2.7, >>> license() return a text that includes a complete list of releases from 1.6 to 2.7 and stops there Release Derived YearOwner GPL- fromcompatible? (1) 0.9.0 thru 1.2 1991-1995 CWI

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 428: Pathlib -> stat caching

On 9/16/2013 4:14 PM, R. David Murray wrote: Well, we tend to avoid single boolean arguments in favor of differently named functions. The stdlib has lots of boolean arguments. My impression is that they are to be avoided when they would change the return type or otherwise do something disjoi

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Issue #18937: Add an assertLogs() context manager to unittest.TestCase to

On 9/14/2013 1:45 PM, antoine.pitrou wrote: http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/4f5815747f58 changeset: 85701:4f5815747f58 user:Antoine Pitrou date:Sat Sep 14 19:45:47 2013 +0200 summary: Issue #18937: Add an assertLogs() context manager to unittest.TestCase to ensure that a b

Re: [Python-Dev] Need testing audio files

On 9/11/2013 10:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Sep 11, 2013, at 01:09 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: In ideal it should be one high-quality (float64?) multichannel (5+1?) but short master file and it's lower-quality copies made by third-party tools. In ideal the content should be related to Python.

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 450 adding statistics module

On 9/8/2013 10:57 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I don't necessarily find this persuasive. It's more common when working with existing databases that you add variables than add observations. My experience with general scientific research is the opposite. One decides on the variables to measu

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 450 adding statistics module

On 9/8/2013 5:41 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Oscar Benjamin wrote: On 8 September 2013 18:32, Guido van Rossum wrote: Going over the open issues: - Parallel arrays or arrays of tuples? I think the API should require an array of tuples. It is trivial to zip up

Re: [Python-Dev] unicodedata module is out of date

On 9/6/2013 11:55 AM, Andrew Miller wrote: I've just checked on Python 2.7.5 and Python 3.3.2 (Win32 versions). In Python 3.3.2 unicodedata.unidata_version is set to '6.1.0'. In Python 2.7.5 it is set to '5.2.0' so it looks as though this version is no longer being updated. In general, new fe

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Update whatsnew/3.4.rst wrt. the socket constants switch to IntEnum

On 9/1/2013 6:59 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Terry Reedy mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: On 8/31/2013 6:19 PM, eli.bendersky wrote: [issue #18730] Wrong issue number I think. ___ Oop

Re: [Python-Dev] 'Subinterpreter' (was Re: Pre-PEP: Redesigning extension modules)

On 9/1/2013 5:13 PM, Stefan Behnel wrote: Antoine Pitrou, 01.09.2013 22:06: On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 16:02:33 -0400 Terry Reedy wrote: Speaking of which, it also doesn't work (well) with subinterpreters: Could someone briefly explain 'subinterpreter' or point me somewhere in the d

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython (merge 3.3 -> default): Merge fix from 3.3 into default.

On 9/1/2013 5:04 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 23:02:17 +0200 (CEST) tim.peters wrote: Windows developers: to get the correct line endings in your checkout, delete Lib\test\xmltestdata, and then "hg revert" that directory. Or, in Tortoisehg Workbenck, select the four Workin

[Python-Dev] 'Subinterpreter' (was Re: Pre-PEP: Redesigning extension modules)

Speaking of which, it also doesn't work (well) with subinterpreters: Could someone briefly explain 'subinterpreter' or point me somewhere in the docs? It appears throughout this thread but there is no index or glossary entry. -- Terry Jan Reedy

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: Issue #17741: Rename IncrementalParser and its methods.

On 8/30/2013 9:37 PM, Ryan Gonzalez wrote: I still think non-blocking sounds network-related... But it isn't ;-). Gui apps routinely use event loops and/or threads or subprocesses to avoid blocking on either user input (which can come from keyboard or mouse) and maybe disk operations and calc

Re: [Python-Dev] Coverity Scan Spotlight Python

On 8/30/2013 8:18 AM, Christian Heimes wrote: By the way Coverity Scan doesn't understand Python code. It can only analyzes C, C++ and Java code. Have you (or Coverity) thought about which, if any, of the C defect categories apply to Python? (Assuming no use of ctypes ;-). Would it make any

Re: [Python-Dev] Coverity Scan Spotlight Python

On 8/29/2013 7:24 PM, Sturla Molden wrote: Do the numbers add up? .005 defects in 1,000 lines of code is one defect in every 200,000 lines of code. However they also claim that "to date, the Coverity Scan service has analyzed nearly 400,000 lines of Python code and identified 996 new defects

Re: [Python-Dev] Pre-PEP: Redesigning extension modules

On 8/25/2013 7:54 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: And what if you do "from extmodule import some_function" in a Python module? Then reloading couldn't replace that reference, just as for normal Python modules. Meaning that you'd still have to keep both modules properly alive in order to prevent crashes

Re: [Python-Dev] Pre-PEP: Redesigning extension modules

On 8/24/2013 8:51 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: Antoine Pitrou, 24.08.2013 13:53: This would also imply extension module have to be subclasses of the built-in module type. They can't be arbitrary objects like Stefan proposed. I'm not sure what the latter enables, but it would probably make things mor

Re: [Python-Dev] please back out changeset f903cf864191 before alpha-2

On 8/24/2013 10:03 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: I have not used ET or equivalent, but I do have opinions on function names. Looking at the current documentation of ElementTree sets of alarm bells on that front, as it contains the following method descriptions for XMLParser: close() Fi

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of 3.2 in Hg repository?

On 8/21/2013 4:52 PM, R. David Murray wrote: On Wed, 21 Aug 2013 14:34:33 -0500, Tim Peters wrote: [Brett] ... After reading that sentence I realize there is a key "not" missing: "I see no reason NOT to help visibly shutter the 3.2. branch ...". IOW I say do the null merge. Sorry about that.

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 450 adding statistics module

On 8/15/2013 10:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: The most obvious case is datetime: we have datetime(), and datetime.now(), datetime.today(), and datetime.strftime(). The only API difference between it and median is that datetime is a type and median is not, but that's a difference that makes no di

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 450 adding statistics module

On 8/14/2013 9:25 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Hi all, I have raised a tracker item and PEP for adding a statistics module to the standard library: http://bugs.python.org/issue18606 http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0450/ There has been considerable discussion on python-ideas, I have avoided

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 450 adding statistics module

On 8/15/2013 4:16 PM, Eric V. Smith wrote: itertools.chain.from_iterable. But I think that was a mistake, too. As a recent discussion showed, it's not exactly discoverable. The fact that it's not mentioned in the list of functions at the top of the documentation doesn't help. And "chain" is docum

Re: [Python-Dev] When to remove deprecated stuff

On 8/15/2013 8:29 AM, R. David Murray wrote: A number of us (I don't know how many) have clearly been thinking about "Python 4" as the time when we remove cruft. This will not cause any backward compatibility issues for anyone who has paid heed to the deprecation warnings, but will for those wh

[Python-Dev] Issue 13248: 3.4 Removals?

Related to the current deprecation discussion: http://bugs.python.org/issue13248 This is a master list of deprecated items scheduled for removal in 3.4. Anything that is going to be removed should be done now, before the next alpha, methinks. -- Terry Jan Reedy __

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 450 adding statistics module

On 8/14/2013 9:25 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: The tests aren't yet integrated with the test runner but are runnable manually. What do you mean? With the changes I gave you, they run fine as part of the test suite. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev

Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecating the formatter module

On 8/14/2013 12:09 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On 14 August 2013 11:55, Brett Cannon wrote: I view a deprecation as the same thing. If we leave the module in until Python 4 then I can live with that, but simply moving documentation around is not enough to communicate to those who didn't read the

Re: [Python-Dev] Guidance regarding tests for the standard lib

On 8/13/2013 7:51 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: http://bugs.python.org/issue18606 Tests at end of statistics.patch. and I'm about to submit a patch containing my updated code and tests, but I've run into a problem with testing. My existing tests use unittest, and follow the basic boilerplate do

Re: [Python-Dev] SSL issues in Python stdlib and 3rd party code

On 8/13/2013 5:06 AM, Christian Heimes wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 CVE-2013-4238 has been signed to NULL bytes in subjectAltName issue. assigned... http://bugs.python.org/issue18709 http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2013/08/13/2 Should we assign a C

[Python-Dev] Green buildbot failure.

This run recorded here shows a green test (it appears to have timed out) http://buildbot.python.org/all/builders/x86%20Windows7%203.x/builds/7017 but the corresponding log for this Windows bot http://buildbot.python.org/all/builders/x86%20Windows7%203.x/builds/7017/steps/test/logs/stdio has the e

[Python-Dev] Buildbot failure puzzle

At least the following 3.4 buildbots have failed today with an error I do not understand: AMD64 FreeBSD, PPC64, x86Ubuntu, x86 WinServer 2003. Except for the Windows BB, it was the only failure and hence the only reason to not be green. ERROR: test_xmlcharnamereplace (test.test_codeccallbacks.C

Re: [Python-Dev] Our failure at handling GSoC students

On 8/6/2013 3:26 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I would like to point out that we currently fail at handling GSoC projects and bringing them to completion. One cruel example is the set of PEP 3121 / PEP 384 refactorings done by Robin Schreiber: http://bugs.python.org/issue?%40columns=id%2Cactivity%2

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 8 modernisation

On 8/1/2013 11:35 AM, Alexander Belopolsky wrote: Here is one use-case where .. = lambda .. cannot be replaced with def .. op['add'] = lambda x,y: x+y op['mul'] = lambda x, y: x*y Yes, you are binding the functions to named slots, not to names, so not covered by the PEP. Once might still wa

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 8 modernisation

On 8/1/2013 11:03 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote: ...and, if so, why lambda's?(: Without backward compatibility point I see that they are getting "unofficially" deprecated and their usage is dishonoured. Please stop both the top-posting and the FUD. -- Terry Jan Reedy

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 8 modernisation

On 8/1/2013 10:48 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote: I understand this, but I'm a bit confused about fate of lambdas with such guideline since I see no more reasons to use them with p.9 statement: long lines, code duplicate, no mock and well tests etc. - all these problems could be solved with assigning

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 8 modernisation

On 8/1/2013 10:34 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote: Hi Nick, On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: 9. Explicit guideline not to assign lambdas to names (use def, that's what it's for) Even for propose to fit chars-per-line limit def f(x): return 2*x f = lambda x: 2*x Three spaces

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython (2.7): Issue #18441: Make test.support.requires('gui') skip when it should.

On 7/30/2013 1:31 PM, R. David Murray wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 01:09:43 +0200, terry.reedy wrote: Issue #18441: Make test.support.requires('gui') skip when it should. (Consolidating this check and various checks in tkinter files and moving them to test.support and test.regrtest will be a

Re: [Python-Dev] Coverity Scan

On 7/25/2013 6:56 PM, Christian Heimes wrote: Am 26.07.2013 00:32, schrieb Terry Reedy: # Since false positives should stay constant as true positives are reduced toward 0, false / all should tend toward 1 (100%) if I understand the ratio correctly. Which I did not ;-). About 40% of the

Re: [Python-Dev] Coverity Scan

On 7/25/2013 6:00 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: Defect Density:0.05 = defects per thousand lines = 20/400 Anything under 1 is good. The release above reports Samba now at .6. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2038244/linux-code-is-the-benchmark-of-quality-study-concludes.html reports Linux 3.8 as

Re: [Python-Dev] Coverity Scan

On 7/25/2013 2:48 PM, Christian Heimes wrote: Hello, this is an update on my work and the current status of Coverity Scan. Great work. Maybe you have noticed a checkins made be me that end with the line "CID #". These are checkins that fix an issue that was discovered by the static code ana

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 as a Default in Linux Distros

On 7/24/2013 5:12 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: Hi all, in recent days, there has been a discussion on fedora-devel (see thread [1]) about moving to Python 3 as a default. Default-shift is a known natural language phenomenon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retronym It is inevitably messy in the mid

Re: [Python-Dev] Misc re.match() complaint

On 7/18/2013 9:15 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote: In 3.x "string" means "str", "bytes" means "bytes", "bytes-like object" means "any object that supports the buffer protocol" [0] (including bytes). "string and bytes-like object" includes all of them. I don't think we need to introduce new terms. I a

Re: [Python-Dev] Misc re.match() complaint

On 7/17/2013 12:15 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Terry Reedy writes: > On 7/15/2013 10:20 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > >> Or is this something deeper, that a group *is* a new object in > >> principle? > > > > No, I just think of it as returnin

Re: [Python-Dev] Tweaking PEP 8 guidelines for use of leading underscores

On 7/16/2013 9:39 AM, R. David Murray wrote: On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:19:21 +1000, Steven D'Aprano wrote: For example, pkgutil includes classes with single-underscore methods, which I take as private. It also has a function simplegeneric, which is undocumented and not listed in __all__. In in

Re: [Python-Dev] Why does PEP 8 advise against explicit relative imports?

On 7/16/2013 7:40 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: PEP 8 advises developers to use absolute imports rather than explicit relative imports. Why? Using absolute imports couple the internal implementation of a package to its public name - you can't just change the top level directory name any more, you have

Re: [Python-Dev] Misc re.match() complaint

On 7/15/2013 10:20 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Or is this something deeper, that a group *is* a new object in principle? No, I just think of it as returning "a string" That is exactly what the doc says it does. See my other post. -- Terry Jan Reedy _

Re: [Python-Dev] Misc re.match() complaint

On 7/15/2013 7:14 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: In a discussion about mypy I discovered that the Python 3 version of the re module's Match object behaves subtly different from the Python 2 version when the target string (i.e. the haystack, not the needle) is a buffer object. In Python 2, the type

Re: [Python-Dev] Tweaking PEP 8 guidelines for use of leading underscores

On 7/15/2013 11:11 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: I'll look into adding some stronger wording at the top making it clear that while PEP 8 is a useful starting point and a good default if a project doesn't have a defined style guide of it's own, it is *not* the be-all-and-end-all for Python style guides

Re: [Python-Dev] Refactoring test.support into a subpackage

On 7/15/2013 6:22 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: At the PyCon AU sprints, some of the sprinters worked on a plan Chris Jerdonek and I came up with months ago to convert test.support from a module into a subpackage. This plan arose from some nasty test suite hacks in the lead up to the release of Python

Re: [Python-Dev] Tweaking PEP 8 guidelines for use of leading underscores

On 7/15/2013 12:17 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: You'd be surprised how many non-core devs react with astonishment when I suggest that not documenting something isn't enough to avoid having users consider it a supported public API - they usually get it after I point out how far you can usually get ju

Re: [Python-Dev] Tweaking PEP 8 guidelines for use of leading underscores

On 7/14/2013 7:09 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: Slight adjustment to the proposed wording to ensure completely undocumented modules are also considered private: = Private interfaces Unless explicitly documented otherwise, a leading underscore on any name indicates that it is an inter

Re: [Python-Dev] PLY in stdlib (was cffi in stdlib)

On 7/13/2013 12:10 AM, Eric Snow wrote: On Feb 27, 2013 4:31 AM, "Michael Foord" > +1 PLY is capable and well tried-and-tested. We used it in Resolver One to implement a pretty large grammar and it is (in my opinion) best of breed in the Python parser generator world. Being stable and widely

Re: [Python-Dev] Rough idea for adding introspection information for builtins

On 7/7/2013 7:35 AM, Larry Hastings wrote: On 07/07/2013 07:19 AM, Ronald Oussoren wrote: Not entirely on topic, but close enough: pydoc currently doesn't use the __signature__ information at all. Adding such support would be easy enough, see #17053 for an implementation ;-) True, it doesn't

Re: [Python-Dev] Oddity in MISC/News on default

On 7/4/2013 3:36 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Maybe the mistake is that the others aren't mentioned? Or perhaps everything before 3.4a1 should be dropped? I forget what kind of policy we have for this -- is it all changes in this branch or only changes unique to this branch? It cannot be 'unique

Re: [Python-Dev] winsound.c fix to support python3

On 6/29/2013 11:59 AM, Tamir Friedman wrote: Hello, My name is Tamir Friedman, and I suggest to fix a bug in PlaySound in winsound library. It's doesn't support the SND_MEMORY feature because its accepts only "str" and rejects "bytes" type. therefore i include the fixed source file: Thank you f

Re: [Python-Dev] Reminder: an oft-forgotten rule about docstring formatting (PEP 257)

On 6/26/2013 9:56 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: PEP 257 says this on the formatting of multi-line docstrings: """ Multi-line docstrings consist of a summary line just like a one-line docstring, followed by a blank line, followed by a more elaborate description. fileinput has docstrings like

Re: [Python-Dev] Reminder: an oft-forgotten rule about docstring formatting (PEP 257)

On 6/27/2013 12:57 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: It was never my intention to enforce that everything has a docstring. Just that if it does, it looks good. Ok, I won't add them when a function's name actually makes what it does obvious. But when I have to spend at least a few minutes reading the

Re: [Python-Dev] Reminder: an oft-forgotten rule about docstring formatting (PEP 257)

On 6/27/2013 11:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Yes on one line, capitalized, period. No on single sentence. Complete and correct docstrings are somewhat rare in idlelib. About half are missing. Single lines typically omit the period. Multiple lines often omit the blank line after the first. I

Re: [Python-Dev] stat module in C -- what to do with stat.py?

On 6/21/2013 7:45 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le Fri, 21 Jun 2013 21:39:10 +1000, Nick Coghlan a écrit : I think it's OK to expose additional platform specific features in the C version, and have them fail cleanly with the pure Python version (rather than silently giving the wrong answer). PE

Re: [Python-Dev] RFC: PEP 445: Add new APIs to customize Python memory allocators

On 6/19/2013 11:24 AM, Victor Stinner wrote: 2013/6/19 Antoine Pitrou : Le Tue, 18 Jun 2013 22:40:49 +0200, Victor Stinner a écrit : Only one get/set function for block allocators -- Replace the 6 functions: * ``void PyMem_GetRawAllocator(PyMemBl

Re: [Python-Dev] Clean way in python to test for None, empty, scalar, and list/ndarray? A prayer to the gods of Python

On 6/15/2013 5:45 PM, Tres Seaver wrote: Given that strings are implemented in C, That is a current implementation detail. String functions were originally written in python in string.py. Some used 'for c in s:'. The functions only because methods after 2.2. I presume Pypy starts from Pytho

Re: [Python-Dev] Clean way in python to test for None, empty, scalar, and list/ndarray? A prayer to the gods of Python

On 6/15/2013 8:53 AM, Tres Seaver wrote: In fifteen years of Python programming, I have literally *never* wanted to iterate over 'str' (or now 'bytes'). If so, it is because you have always been able to use pre-written methods and functions that internally do the iteration for you. > I've a

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: fix compilation on Windows

On 5/16/2013 4:17 PM, victor.stinner wrote: summary: fix compilation on Windows That fixed my problem with compiling 3.4, 32 bit, Win 7. Thanks. But I cannot compile 3.3 python_d since May 6. In fact, there are more errors now than 8 hours ago. 7 things failed to build instead of 5 (3 is no

Re: [Python-Dev] Idle, site.py, and the release candidates

On 3/31/2013 2:39 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Terry Jan Reedy > I do not know enough about other circumstances in which stdin.fileno would do something other than return 0 to be sure of what the proper fix would be. (I increasin

Re: [Python-Dev] Simple IDLE issues to commit before Python 2.7.4 release in two weeks on 4/6/2013

On 3/25/2013 3:30 PM, Todd Rovito wrote: http://bugs.python.org/issue7136 Idle File Menu Option Improvement http://bugs.python.org/issue17390 display python version on idle title bar http://bugs.python.org/issue17511 Idle find function closes after each find operation http://bugs.python.org/issu

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/22/2013 2:51 PM, francis wrote: ~$ python2.7 -m idlelib /usr/bin/python2.7: No module named idlelib.__main__; 'idlelib' is a package and cannot be directly executed Same with python3... C:\Programs>python33\python.exe -m idlelib brings up IDLE on Windows. 2.7 and 3.2 do not work as abov

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 7:17 PM, Thomas Wouters wrote: although I do think we should move 'idlelib' out of the standard library :) Currently, 'python -m idlelib' start idle from the command line. If idlelib/ were moved out of /Lib, idle.py should be added so 'python -m idle' would work. I may suggest t

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 11:21 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:26 AM, Daniel Holth wrote: I showed IDLE to my 6-year-old on the Raspberry Pi and I'm convinced it is cool. Gave up on trying to (slowly) install bpython. We were multiplying large numbers and counting to 325,000 in no time. I

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 5:19 PM, Mark Janssen wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Terry Reedy mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: I might be jumping in late here, but... Not at all. Thank you for the enlightening post. The *only* thing I find "ugly" about it is that it doesn't

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: Issue #13248: removed deprecated and undocumented difflib.isbjunk, isbpopular.

On 3/21/2013 2:23 PM, R. David Murray wrote: On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 01:19:42 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote: How does this look? Is ``replacement`` right? Should the subsequent sm by itself be marked? If so, how? * :meth:`difflib.SequenceMatcher.isbjunk` and :meth

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/20/2013 12:41 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: Interesting writeup about PyCon 2013 young coder education:http://therealkatie.net/blog/2013/mar/19/pycon-2013-young-coders/ Quote: "We used IDLE because it's already on Raspian's desktop. Personally, I like IDLE as a teaching tool. It's included in t

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 5:20 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le Thu, 21 Mar 2013 02:42:33 -0400, Terry Reedy a écrit : On 3/20/2013 11:54 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Terry Reedy Ugly is subjective: by what standard and compared to what? Compared to other existing Python

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 5:41 AM, Paul Moore wrote: On 21 March 2013 06:54, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: I think being frozen in the late 1990s is better than being frozen in the early 1980s, like Command Prompt is. In fact, I think we should 'depr

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 5:27 AM, Paul Moore wrote: Can I suggest that debates about the capability of Windows command line programming are off-topic here? I respectfully disagree, unless you say that the whole thread is off topic. If it is okay for people to say that IDLE, including the IDLE interactiv

Re: [Python-Dev] A 'common' respository? (was Re: IDLE in the stdlib)

On 3/21/2013 2:06 AM, Philip James wrote: I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic, because I think you have some good arguments listed above, but shouldn't discussion like this go in python-ideas rather than python-dev? Normally yes. But since this is a counter-proposal or an alternate propos

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 12:32 AM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote: Well, spending a lot of time backporting new features is not my idea of fun. OTOH, I have no objection. I intentionally did not say in the PEP that it should be mandatory. Along those lines, I've thought that IDLE should refrain from using the new

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/21/2013 12:36 AM, Glenn Linderman wrote: On 3/20/2013 5:15 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: Broken (and quirky): it has an absurdly limited output buffer (under a thousand lines) People keep claiming that Windows CMD has a limited output buffer. It is configurable, at least to lines, which is

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/20/2013 11:54 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Terry Reedy Ugly is subjective: by what standard and compared to what? Compared to other existing Python IDEs and shells which are layered on top of modern GUI toolkits that are actively developed to keep with

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/20/2013 8:38 PM, Neil Hodgson wrote: Terry Reedy: Broken (and quirky): it has an absurdly limited output buffer (under a thousand lines) The limit is actually lines. I clicked Start / All programs / Python 3.3 / Python (command line) >>> help(str) (several times) and

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: Issue #13248: removed deprecated and undocumented difflib.isbjunk, isbpopular.

On 3/20/2013 2:13 PM, R. David Murray wrote: On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:23:43 -0700, Eli Bendersky wrote: A mention in Misc/NEWS can't hurt here, Terry. Even though it's undocumented, some old code could rely on it being there and this code will break with the transition to 3.4 Will do. Note th

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/20/2013 12:41 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than one. It's badly maintained, quirky and ugly. Ugly is subjective: by what standard and compared to what? I suggested in my previous response why I think 'badly maintained' is u

[Python-Dev] A 'common' respository? (was Re: IDLE in the stdlib)

On 3/20/2013 8:15 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: I will discuss repository separation in another response Here is a radical idea I have been toying with: set up a 'common' repository to 'factor out' files that are, could be, or should be the same across versions. The &#x

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/20/2013 6:48 PM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote: It seems to me that we are seeing increasing use of IDLE for beginner training. I've seen several recent Python books that use IDLE as their programming environment, and which include IDLE screen captures in the text. Well, one can hardly use Command

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/20/2013 3:59 PM, Brian Curtin wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Xavier Morel wrote: That would be a blow to educators, but also Windows users: while the CLI works very nicely in unices, that's not the case with the win32 console which is as best as I can describe it a complete turd,

Re: [Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

On 3/20/2013 2:22 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:09 AM, R. David Murray mailto:rdmur...@bitdance.com>> wrote: On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:41:53 -0700, Eli Bendersky mailto:eli...@gmail.com>> wrote: Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than one.

Re: [Python-Dev] Matching __all__ to doc: bugfix or enhancement?

On 3/15/2013 12:15 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: So it's a new feature, albeit a small one. I do see that it shouldn't be backported, but I don't see any worries about doing it in 3.4. Adding new functions/classes/constants to modules happens all the time, and we never give a second thought to user

[Python-Dev] Matching __all__ to doc: bugfix or enhancement?

The timeit doc describes four public attributes. The current timeit.__all__ only lists one. http://bugs.python.org/issue17414 proposes to expand __all__ to include all four: -__all__ = ["Timer"] +__all__ = ["Timer", "timeit", "repeat", "default_timer"] The effect of the change is a) help(timit) w

Re: [Python-Dev] About issue 6560

On 3/14/2013 6:48 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: Am 14.03.13 15:15, schrieb Ani Sinha: I was looking into a mechanism to get the aux fields from recvmsg() in python and I came across this issue. Looks like this feature was added in python 3.3. Is there any reason why this feature was not added for

Re: [Python-Dev] FileCookieJars

On 3/10/2013 4:59 PM, R. David Murray wrote: To be clear, just passing the stdlib tests is *not* sufficient to think that backward compatibility is not likely to be broken. Deciding about the likelihood of breakage is a hard problem, to which we generally employ gut-level heuristics :) (And cod

[Python-Dev] PEP 434: IDLE Enhancement Exception

nches Version: $Revision$ Last-Modified: $Date$ Author: Todd Rovito , Terry Reedy BDFL-Delegate: Nick Coghlan Status: Draft Type: Informational Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 16-Feb-2013 Post-History: 16-Feb-2013 Abstract Most CPython tracker issues are classified as behavi

Re: [Python-Dev] Introducing Electronic Contributor Agreements

On 3/4/2013 3:46 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 15:46:48 -0500 Terry Reedy wrote: Either policy could be facilitated by tracker changes. In order to see the file upload box, one must login and the tracker knows who has a CLA on file (as indicated by a * suffix on the name). If

Re: [Python-Dev] VC++ 2008 Express Edition now locked away?

On 3/6/2013 12:29 PM, Steve Dower wrote: From: Case Van Horsen The "Microsoft Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 3.5 SP1" is still available for download. It includes the command line compilers that are used with VS 2008. I have used to create extensions for Python 2.6 to 3.2. There

Re: [Python-Dev] VC++ 2008 Express Edition now locked away?

On 3/6/2013 11:55 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: Someone would have to check, but in most cases, software licenses govern the use, more than the distribution. If you're allowed to download it free of charge from microsoft.com, you should be able to get hold of it in some other way and it be exactly t

Re: [Python-Dev] Introducing Electronic Contributor Agreements

On 3/6/2013 3:06 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On 05/03/13 09:08, Brett Cannon wrote: Depends on your paranoia. If you're worried about accidentally lifting IP merely by reading someone's source code, then you wouldn't want to touch code without the CLA signed. Now I'm not that paranoid, but I'm

[Python-Dev] VC++ 2008 Express Edition now locked away?

Clicking this link http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=14597 on this Developer Guide page http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows now returns a "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found." page with search results. The first search result http://social.ms

Re: [Python-Dev] Introducing Electronic Contributor Agreements

On 3/4/2013 7:51 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote: Who's talking source code, you're previously mentioned *ALL* patches needing a CLA. Does this mean you have to sign a CLA for a one line documentation patch? It it is a one char typo, I would not bother downloading the patch, or adding a person to AC

Re: [Python-Dev] Python Language Summit at PyCon: Agenda

On 3/4/2013 5:24 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: What I'm looking for is something that automated tools can use to easily discover how to run a package's tests. I want it to be dead simple for developers of a package to declare how their tests are to be run, and what I am writing a package that has t

Re: [Python-Dev] Introducing Electronic Contributor Agreements

On 3/4/2013 3:46 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 15:46:48 -0500 Terry Reedy wrote: On 3/4/2013 11:36 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: With this in place I would like to propose that all patches submitted to bugs.python.org <http://bugs.python.org> must come from someone who has

Re: [Python-Dev] Introducing Electronic Contributor Agreements

On 3/4/2013 11:36 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Brian Curtin mailto:br...@python.org>> wrote: The full announcement is at http://blog.python.org/2013/03/introducing-electronic-contributor.html, but a summary follows. We've now moved to an electronic

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