Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Rhodri James]

On 04/07/2020 16:38, Random832 wrote:

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020, at 08:48, Rhodri James wrote:

As I said in my preamble, it doesn't matter whether you believe that is
true or think it's utter bollocks.  I asked the question to get the
Steering Council's opinion, not anyone else's.  If you collectively
really must rehash the arguments again, please have the decency to do so
in a different thread.


The idea that the statement was in any way related to one of the authors being named 
"White" was an *obvious factual mistake* in your post.


Nope.  It was a factual mistake in someone else's post.  I hesitate to 
say "obvious" because I have in fact known people to genuinely think 
things like that.  It is *still* irrelevant to what was asked of the 
Steering Council.


--
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Random832]

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, at 18:17, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 07/04/2020 10:32 AM, Random832 wrote:
> 
> > I said obvious because even if it was not obvious from the commit message 
> > itself, it had *already been explained* in the thread on the other mailing 
> > list
> 
> That would require Michael to have been reading the other mailing list 
> to know that.  Just because the information is out there, doesn't mean 
> everybody has seen it.

ok, you know what?

regardless of hairsplitting about how obvious or not it is what she meant, and 
whether or not "it's because of the name White" was a reasonable conclusion to 
jump to, none of that changes that the conclusion was, in fact, incorrect. So 
trying to fight with me for pointing that out and claiming I was offering my 
"opinion" was unreasonable. I was not offering an opinion, I was pointing out a 
factual error, and arguing that the error was reasonable to make rather than 
being obvious doesn't change that.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Ethan Furman]

On 07/04/2020 10:32 AM, Random832 wrote:


I said obvious because even if it was not obvious from the commit message 
itself, it had *already been explained* in the thread on the other mailing list


That would require Michael to have been reading the other mailing list to know 
that.  Just because the information is out there, doesn't mean everybody has 
seen it.

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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Random832]

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, at 12:33, o1bigtenor wrote:
> I would point out that even suggesting that the issue be a *obvious 
> factual mistake* only serves to prove that you didn't read the thing 
> and I, at least, wonder why you're offering an opinion on any part of 
> the discussion. 

I said obvious because even if it was not obvious from the commit message 
itself, it had *already been explained* in the thread on the other mailing list 
by the time Michael Torrie posted (July 02 15:14) his assertion of "The fact 
she would conflate an author's name with some kind of race-related thing". I 
even recall raising the question of whether he had in fact read any of that 
discussion. After all, Ethan Furman made the same mistake in his original post, 
and was corrected *very* early on in the discussion, so repeating it several 
days later makes little sense.

*Regardless whether you agree or not* with the premise that "standard english" 
is a subtle means of enforcing white supremacy, the fact that some people do 
believe that is a far more plausible explanation for the statement in the 
commit message than the fact that one of the authors happens to have been named 
"White", and the idea that it was because of the latter only exists in the 
imagination of those determined to assume the worst of the person who wrote the 
commit message.





On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, at 08:44, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 06/30/2020 05:03 AM, Łukasz Langa wrote:
> > 
> >> On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:44, Ethan Furman  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Of course I don't know if Keara or Guido knew any of this, but it 
> >> certainly feels to me that the commit message is ostracizing an entire 
> >> family line because they had the misfortune to have the wrong last name.  
> >> In fact, it seems like Strunk & White is making changes to be inclusive in 
> >> its advice -- exactly what I would have thought we wanted on our side 
> >> ("our side" being the diverse and welcoming side).
> > 
> > In any case, saying that Keara and Guido mistook the family name of one of 
> > the authors for skin color feels derogatory.
> 
> My apologies, that was not my intent.  As I said, I never knew what it 
> was until today (er, yesterday now).
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[o1bigtenor]

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 10:41 AM Random832  wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020, at 08:48, Rhodri James wrote:
> > As I said in my preamble, it doesn't matter whether you believe that is
> > true or think it's utter bollocks.  I asked the question to get the
> > Steering Council's opinion, not anyone else's.  If you collectively
> > really must rehash the arguments again, please have the decency to do so
> > in a different thread.
>
> The idea that the statement was in any way related to one of the authors
> being named "White" was an *obvious factual mistake* in your post.
> Regardless of anything else, that is *not a matter of opinion*, so saying
> whose opinion you wanted is irrelevant.
>

Copied from the commit:

Instead of requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White Standard
English, require instead that English-language comments be clear and easily
understandable by other English speakers. This accomplishes the same goal
without upholding relics of white supremacy. Many native English speakers
do not use Standard English as their native dialect, so requiring
conformation to Standard English centers whiteness in an inappropriate and
unnecessary way, and can alienate and put up barriers for people of color
and those whose native dialect of English is not Standard English. This
change is a simple way to correct that while maintaining the original
intent of the requirement.

I would point out that even suggesting that the issue be a *obvious factual
mistake* only serves to prove that you didn't read the thing and I, at
least, wonder why you're offering an opinion on any part of the discussion.

IMO the language in the commit is inflammatory and should either be revised
or it and the commit removed for its clear intellectual disfunction.

Regards

Regards
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Random832]

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020, at 08:48, Rhodri James wrote:
> As I said in my preamble, it doesn't matter whether you believe that is 
> true or think it's utter bollocks.  I asked the question to get the 
> Steering Council's opinion, not anyone else's.  If you collectively 
> really must rehash the arguments again, please have the decency to do so 
> in a different thread.

The idea that the statement was in any way related to one of the authors being 
named "White" was an *obvious factual mistake* in your post. Regardless of 
anything else, that is *not a matter of opinion*, so saying whose opinion you 
wanted is irrelevant.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2020-07-03, Michael Torrie  wrote:
> On 7/3/20 10:57 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> On 2020-07-03, Ethan Furman  wrote:
>>> On 07/02/2020 07:42 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
 She didn't - you did.
>>>
>>> Please keep the discourse civil.  Petty taunts are not helpful.
>> 
>> Sorry, I don't understand what you are getting at. My comment was not
>> a "petty taunt", it was an important factual correction, and perfectly
>> civil - more so than the post it was a response to.
>> 
>> (I'll concede my second post repeating it in response to "Come again?"
>> was somewhat facetious though ;-) )
>
> All you needed to say was, "No, she did not conflate 'White' with race."
>  To say "[I] did," is a very odd thing, and certainly inaccurate. I
> definitely did not conflate White with race.  Why do you think that?

Because you conflated the name of the author and race in the post
I was responding to.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/2/2020 6:46 PM, Random832 wrote:
 how much of that discussion you've actually read), but the point is 
that the *whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white supremacy, 
not any particular standard whether via its authors or otherwise.


France has the French Academy to protect the purity of the French 
languages and reject foreign words.  Spain similarly has a Royal Academy 
to regulate what is Castilian (Spanish Spanish).  In ancient Bharata 
(India), about 2000 years ago, a 'cabal' of grammatcians, exemplified by 
Panini, defined Sanskrit.  English is much more fluid and much more open 
to including foreign words and influences, including from 'non-white' 
peoples.



--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Dieter Maurer]

Random832 wrote at 2020-7-2 18:46 -0400:
> ... the *whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white supremacy, not 
> any particular standard whether via its authors or otherwise.

PEP 8 was initially designed as a style specification for
Python's runtime library. I hope we can agree that
all documentation in Python's runtime library should use
(some) standard English - understandable by any typical English speaker
- and not some English dialect spoken and understood only in some
parts of the world.


PEP 8 has been adopted meanwhile by many external projects.
Those projects might choose a different language and
maybe even an English dialect. However, if the project
want to be international, "standard English" (in contrast
to an English dialect) has its advantages.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Michael Torrie]

On 7/3/20 10:57 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2020-07-03, Ethan Furman  wrote:
>> On 07/02/2020 07:42 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>>> She didn't - you did.
>>
>> Please keep the discourse civil.  Petty taunts are not helpful.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand what you are getting at. My comment was not
> a "petty taunt", it was an important factual correction, and perfectly
> civil - more so than the post it was a response to.
> 
> (I'll concede my second post repeating it in response to "Come again?"
> was somewhat facetious though ;-) )

All you needed to say was, "No, she did not conflate 'White' with race."
 To say "[I] did," is a very odd thing, and certainly inaccurate. I
definitely did not conflate White with race.  Why do you think that?  As
others helpfully pointed out, the context for her comments was out of
band (not on this list).  Thus she was not conflating anything.  If we
want to go in circles, sure I did conflate that she conflated.

thanks.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2020-07-03, Ethan Furman  wrote:
> On 07/02/2020 07:42 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> She didn't - you did.
>
> Please keep the discourse civil.  Petty taunts are not helpful.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are getting at. My comment was not
a "petty taunt", it was an important factual correction, and perfectly
civil - more so than the post it was a response to.

(I'll concede my second post repeating it in response to "Come again?"
was somewhat facetious though ;-) )
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Ethan Furman]

On 07/02/2020 07:42 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:


She didn't - you did.


Please keep the discourse civil.  Petty taunts are not helpful.

--
~Ethan~
Python List Moderator
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Rhodri James]

On 03/07/2020 15:28, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:

On 2020-07-03, Rhodri James  wrote:

On 02/07/2020 23:46, Random832 wrote:

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 18:29, Michael Torrie wrote:

Come again?  I can see no other link in the verbage with the
"relics of white supremacy" that she referred to.  If there are
other links, they should be included in the commit message.  I
agree with Rhodri that an explanation would be interesting.  Far be
it from me to demand one.  So whatever.


It's possible that this wasn't explained clearly enough in the commit
message itself (though I would argue it was definitely adequately
explained in the ensuing on-list discussion, and wonder how much of
that discussion you've actually read), but the point is that the
*whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white supremacy, not
any particular standard whether via its authors or otherwise.


As I said in my preamble, it doesn't matter whether you believe that is
true or think it's utter bollocks.  I asked the question to get the
Steering Council's opinion, not anyone else's.


You don't get to decide whose opinions are offered.


But I do get to decide whose opinions are solicited.

--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
--
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Bev In TX]

> On Jul 3, 2020, at 10:23 AM, o1bigtenor  wrote:
> 
> I decry the present hypersensitivity to any hint of culture that was
> present some 200 years ago especially when such sensitivity is used
> to block a wider group from participating. IMO such hypersensitive
> individuals might be better served by finding some other soap box
> to scream from if that is to be their primary input into a particular
> conversation.

I have worked In harmony with multinational teams from all over the world.  We 
never needed a writing standard for code changes.  Are current Python code 
changes documented in such a poor way that they are not understandable?  That 
would be the only reason to promote a standard, which would not have to be as 
stringent as Strunk and White.

I don’t like the use of the word “racism” in connection with writing standards, 
which is blatantly not true.  Do the current leaders of Python promote 
political agendas?  That’s what this sounds like.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2020-07-02, Michael Torrie  wrote:
> On 7/2/20 1:26 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> On 2020-07-02, Michael Torrie  wrote:
>>> Agreed. She just needs to fix her commit message to remove the sentence
>>> about the relics of white supremacy.  The fact she would conflate an
>>> author's name with some kind of race-related thing is a bit
>>> embarrassing, frankly.
>> 
>> She didn't - you did.
>
> Come again?

She didn't - you did.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[o1bigtenor]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:05 PM Michael Torrie  wrote:
>
> On 7/2/20 4:46 PM, Random832 wrote:
> > It's possible that this wasn't explained clearly enough in the commit
> > message itself (though I would argue it was definitely adequately
> > explained in the ensuing on-list discussion, and wonder how much of
> > that discussion you've actually read), but the point is that the
> > *whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white supremacy, not
> > any particular standard whether via its authors or otherwise.
>
> Good to know.  Nothing at all was explained in the commit message
> justifying that particular sentence, leaving one unfamiliar with the
> background to wonder what she was referring to.
>
> I definitely agree the words "standard English" are pretty meaningless
> to would-be python developers anyway and the new phrase in the PEP 8 is
> much better.
> --

Given that I have had plenteen (sic) years of education all in the English
language including some instructors trained in the UK and also some
periods of technical education in at least one language other than English
and am quite familiar with the said "Stunk and White - -  *The Elements*
* of Style*" perhaps I could offer some background.

Especially in an upper class year academic education Strunk and White is
quite usually inflicted upon at least all Arts and Humanities kind of
students. They advocate for short pithy sentences, including IIRC a
statement something to the effect of a sentence with more than 5 words
is too long. There are many other amorphisms most of which point out
that such a writing style is perhaps the easiest to understand. As far as
that goes their position is somewhat correct but I have come to very much
differ with their quite heavy handed technique. When one is writing about
very complex topics it is useful to be able to craft complex sentences but
then said authors seemed to think that everything was reducible to a
quite elementary level - - - I have not found that to be true.

A little closer to the intent of the question.
In good documentation reasonable sentences make it much easier to
understand a previously unknown topic or idea. So in that way asking
for writers to at least be aware of if not slavishly follow some so called
'standard of style'. Strunk and White and Kate Turabian have both
published works that are quite accepted in the Arts and the Humanities
as I did not do any graduate training in the Sciences I do not know
what the recommended manuals are in such but in reading plenty
of papers most of the authors would be quite assisted in writing to be
understood rather than to impress.

So I can understand a desire to suggest the usage of a 'Manual of
Style' but I would not be comfortable if it were a requirement.
Languages other than English have different strengths and their
users, when faced with writing documentation in a language that,
even though they are quite comfortable with English, they are not
used to producing what may be possible by a writer who is fully
cognisant with the most rigorous aspects of style, may enhance
said documentation even if said documentation is not 'perfectly
correct in style'. (The previous sentence is an example of what is
possible using complex sentence structure - - - grin!)

I decry the present hypersensitivity to any hint of culture that was
present some 200 years ago especially when such sensitivity is used
to block a wider group from participating. IMO such hypersensitive
individuals might be better served by finding some other soap box
to scream from if that is to be their primary input into a particular
conversation.

HTH

Regards
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2020-07-03, Rhodri James  wrote:
> On 02/07/2020 23:46, Random832 wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 18:29, Michael Torrie wrote:
>>> Come again?  I can see no other link in the verbage with the
>>> "relics of white supremacy" that she referred to.  If there are
>>> other links, they should be included in the commit message.  I
>>> agree with Rhodri that an explanation would be interesting.  Far be
>>> it from me to demand one.  So whatever.
>> 
>> It's possible that this wasn't explained clearly enough in the commit
>> message itself (though I would argue it was definitely adequately
>> explained in the ensuing on-list discussion, and wonder how much of
>> that discussion you've actually read), but the point is that the
>> *whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white supremacy, not
>> any particular standard whether via its authors or otherwise.
>
> As I said in my preamble, it doesn't matter whether you believe that is 
> true or think it's utter bollocks.  I asked the question to get the 
> Steering Council's opinion, not anyone else's.

You don't get to decide whose opinions are offered.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Rhodri James]

On 02/07/2020 23:46, Random832 wrote:

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 18:29, Michael Torrie wrote:

Come again?  I can see no other link in the verbage with the
"relics of white supremacy" that she referred to.  If there are
other links, they should be included in the commit message.  I
agree with Rhodri that an explanation would be interesting.  Far be
it from me to demand one.  So whatever.


It's possible that this wasn't explained clearly enough in the commit
message itself (though I would argue it was definitely adequately
explained in the ensuing on-list discussion, and wonder how much of
that discussion you've actually read), but the point is that the
*whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white supremacy, not
any particular standard whether via its authors or otherwise.


As I said in my preamble, it doesn't matter whether you believe that is 
true or think it's utter bollocks.  I asked the question to get the 
Steering Council's opinion, not anyone else's.  If you collectively 
really must rehash the arguments again, please have the decency to do so 
in a different thread.


--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
--
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Robin Becker]

Since explicit is better than implicit :-), I would like to formally ask the Steering Council to answer the following 
questions.


1. Does the Steering Council think political statements have any place in the 
Python repositories?

2. If so, for the avoidance of doubt does the Steering Council support the statements in commit 0c6427d? 
(https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4)


3. If not, what do they intend to do about the above commit?

If the answer to question 1 is a qualified yes or no, both follow-up questions 
apply.

If the answer to question 1 is a prevarication, non-answer or silence, people will still draw their own conclusions.  I 
mention this merely to reinforce the idea that these things are still answers as well as hostages to fortune.



the above gets +10 from me

according to the telegraph


John Cleese has accused the BBC of “social engineering” after its head of 
comedy said Monty Python’s white Oxbridge males were out of step with modern 
television.


so is there a pep for alternate language names ;)
--
Robin Becker
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Michael Torrie]

On 7/2/20 4:46 PM, Random832 wrote:
> It's possible that this wasn't explained clearly enough in the commit
> message itself (though I would argue it was definitely adequately
> explained in the ensuing on-list discussion, and wonder how much of
> that discussion you've actually read), but the point is that the
> *whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white supremacy, not
> any particular standard whether via its authors or otherwise.

Good to know.  Nothing at all was explained in the commit message
justifying that particular sentence, leaving one unfamiliar with the
background to wonder what she was referring to.

I definitely agree the words "standard English" are pretty meaningless
to would-be python developers anyway and the new phrase in the PEP 8 is
much better.
-- 
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Bev In TX]

> On Jul 2, 2020, at 5:48 PM, Random832  wrote:
> 
> but the point is that the *whole idea* of "standard English" is tied to white 
> supremacy

Bunkum.  It is racist to claim that standards are against people, when their 
purpose to to make the written word understood by all who read it, as opposed 
to having to understand all dialects.  There are numerous “white” dialects 
whose words and grammars are not included in those standards.

Bev in TX

 
-- 
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Random832]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 18:29, Michael Torrie wrote:
> Come again?  I can see no other link in the verbage with the "relics of
> white supremacy" that she referred to.  If there are other links, they
> should be included in the commit message.  I agree with Rhodri that an
> explanation would be interesting.  Far be it from me to demand one.  So
> whatever.

It's possible that this wasn't explained clearly enough in the commit message 
itself (though I would argue it was definitely adequately explained in the 
ensuing on-list discussion, and wonder how much of that discussion you've 
actually read), but the point is that the *whole idea* of "standard English" is 
tied to white supremacy, not any particular standard whether via its authors or 
otherwise.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Michael Torrie]

On 7/2/20 1:26 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2020-07-02, Michael Torrie  wrote:
>> Agreed. She just needs to fix her commit message to remove the sentence
>> about the relics of white supremacy.  The fact she would conflate an
>> author's name with some kind of race-related thing is a bit
>> embarrassing, frankly.
> 
> She didn't - you did.

Come again?  I can see no other link in the verbage with the "relics of
white supremacy" that she referred to.  If there are other links, they
should be included in the commit message.  I agree with Rhodri that an
explanation would be interesting.  Far be it from me to demand one.  So
whatever.
-- 
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Ethan Furman]

On 07/02/2020 12:14 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:


The fact she would conflate an
author's name with some kind of race-related thing is a bit
embarrassing, frankly.


It seems she has studied literary and English history, at least as related to 
the 20th century, so I don't think any name conflation is going on.  I have 
asked for links that would support her view as expressed in the commit message, 
but haven't yet seen any.

--
~Ethan~
--
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2020-07-02, Michael Torrie  wrote:
> Agreed. She just needs to fix her commit message to remove the sentence
> about the relics of white supremacy.  The fact she would conflate an
> author's name with some kind of race-related thing is a bit
> embarrassing, frankly.

She didn't - you did.
-- 
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Michael Torrie]

On 7/2/20 11:11 AM, Dieter Maurer wrote:
> In the replaced sentence
> `When writing English, follow Strunk and White`
> I interpret "Strunk and White" as a reference to some
> document containing rules for readable English and "Strunk and White"
> are likely the authors of this document. I do not associate "White"
> with "white" in contrast to "black" (or some other colour).
> However, I do not know this document nor "Strunk and White". Thus,
> the PEP text should get improved. If it is refers to a standard,
> it should be be an online standard and the PEP should include its URL.
> Otherwise, non-english people are indeed at a disadvantage.

Yes Strunk and White is a well-known book on writing style.  That's the
names of the authors. William Strunk and EB White.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style

> In contrast, The replacement is well understandable and applicable
> to all languages.

Agreed. She just needs to fix her commit message to remove the sentence
about the relics of white supremacy.  The fact she would conflate an
author's name with some kind of race-related thing is a bit
embarrassing, frankly.

> Thus, in my view, the change is really an improvement.
> One could motivate it differently, however.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Mats Wichmann]

On 7/2/20 12:04 PM, Rhodri James wrote:
> On 02/07/2020 18:11, Dieter Maurer wrote:
>> I am no member of the Council. Thus, your questions are not directed
>> to me. **BUT** you made your questions public and thus you are
>> likely prepared to receive public comments.
> 
> Fortunately you don't answer any of the questions, so I don't need to
> have an opinion on that :-)
> 
>> The commit message tries to provide the motivation for
>> the change. In my view, it is good to document change motivations
>> and a commit message is not a bad place for that.
> 
> True.  However, the motivation as appeared in the discussions was
> (approximately) that many people, especially those whose first language
> is not English, find being given a list of writing guidelines like
> Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style" intimidating.  That's fair
> enough, though a bit more consideration suggests that many people have
> exactly the opposite problem.  The wording could be amended to reassure
> both, and I've been contemplating doing so.

Indeed, without weighing in on this case itself, the purpose of calling
out a "standard langauge" for formal documents is to remove sources of
ambiguity, not to promote one viewpoint or another: not sure how to
express something? Let's see if  the style manual has anything to guide
me. Not to intimidate someone about having set an impossible bar for
writing.  So if there's a way to express that, I'm sure everybody would
be happier!
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Rhodri James]

On 02/07/2020 18:11, Dieter Maurer wrote:

I am no member of the Council. Thus, your questions are not directed
to me. **BUT** you made your questions public and thus you are
likely prepared to receive public comments.


Fortunately you don't answer any of the questions, so I don't need to 
have an opinion on that :-)



The commit message tries to provide the motivation for
the change. In my view, it is good to document change motivations
and a commit message is not a bad place for that.


True.  However, the motivation as appeared in the discussions was 
(approximately) that many people, especially those whose first language 
is not English, find being given a list of writing guidelines like 
Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style" intimidating.  That's fair 
enough, though a bit more consideration suggests that many people have 
exactly the opposite problem.  The wording could be amended to reassure 
both, and I've been contemplating doing so.


The political diatribe about the linguistic contribution to white 
supremacy of standardized English appeared nowhere in the discussion. 
Had it done so, I suspect Keala would have realised quite quickly that 
using it would be (and has been) controversial and divisive, the exact 
opposite of her stated intentions.


All of which is quite beside the point for the questions I raised.  As I 
said, it doesn't matter whether you agree with that political opinion 
raised, disagree with it, or do not give a monkey's, should _any_ 
political opinion be in the repo?


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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Dieter Maurer]

Rhodri James wrote at 2020-7-2 14:39 +0100:
>We've had the requested 24 hour cooling off, and I don't imagine anyone
>is surprised that the situation remains unchanged.  The commit message
>that caused the controversy is still in the PEP repository, and is still
>controversial.  Whether you think it's the best thing since the last
>best thing or the biggest load of bollocks since the last biggest load
>of bollocks is irrelevant.  It's there, it espouses a political stance,
>and by implication the Steering Council support it.
>
>Since explicit is better than implicit :-), I would like to formally ask
>the Steering Council to answer the following questions.

I am no member of the Council. Thus, your questions are not directed
to me. **BUT** you made your questions public and thus you are
likely prepared to receive public comments.

The commit message tries to provide the motivation for
the change. In my view, it is good to document change motivations
and a commit message is not a bad place for that.

In the replaced sentence
`When writing English, follow Strunk and White`
I interpret "Strunk and White" as a reference to some
document containing rules for readable English and "Strunk and White"
are likely the authors of this document. I do not associate "White"
with "white" in contrast to "black" (or some other colour).
However, I do not know this document nor "Strunk and White". Thus,
the PEP text should get improved. If it is refers to a standard,
it should be be an online standard and the PEP should include its URL.
Otherwise, non-english people are indeed at a disadvantage.

In contrast, The replacement is well understandable and applicable
to all languages.

Thus, in my view, the change is really an improvement.
One could motivate it differently, however.
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Re: Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Ethan Furman]

On 07/02/2020 06:39 AM, Rhodri James wrote:


We've had the requested 24 hour cooling off, and I don't imagine anyone is 
surprised that the situation remains unchanged.  The commit message that caused 
the controversy is still in the PEP repository, and is still controversial.  
Whether you think it's the best thing since the last best thing or the biggest 
load of bollocks since the last biggest load of bollocks is irrelevant.  It's 
there, it espouses a political stance, and by implication the Steering Council 
support it.

Since explicit is better than implicit :-), I would like to formally ask the 
Steering Council to answer the following questions.


An issue asking basically the same thing has been created:

  https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/31

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Formal Question to Steering Council (re recent PEP8 changes)

[Rhodri James]

We've had the requested 24 hour cooling off, and I don't imagine anyone 
is surprised that the situation remains unchanged.  The commit message 
that caused the controversy is still in the PEP repository, and is still 
controversial.  Whether you think it's the best thing since the last 
best thing or the biggest load of bollocks since the last biggest load 
of bollocks is irrelevant.  It's there, it espouses a political stance, 
and by implication the Steering Council support it.


Since explicit is better than implicit :-), I would like to formally ask 
the Steering Council to answer the following questions.


1. Does the Steering Council think political statements have any place 
in the Python repositories?


2. If so, for the avoidance of doubt does the Steering Council support 
the statements in commit 0c6427d? 
(https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4)


3. If not, what do they intend to do about the above commit?

If the answer to question 1 is a qualified yes or no, both follow-up 
questions apply.


If the answer to question 1 is a prevarication, non-answer or silence, 
people will still draw their own conclusions.  I mention this merely to 
reinforce the idea that these things are still answers as well as 
hostages to fortune.


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