Re: Comparing religious exemptions and free speech

2013-12-05 Thread Marci Hamilton
Try telling a rape victim that these medications are just "trivial" and, therefore, she can't get coverage, or that whether she uses emergency contraception is any business of her large, corporate employer. The " trivial " burden in fact is the burden on a for-profit employer who is governe

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread W. A. Wildhack III
It's been several years since I commented here, but this thread called to mind an everyday example of current federal policy protecting communications made by both religious and secular persons to "clergy" of many different faiths in one particular setting. While this example surely raises myriad

RE: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Levinson, Sanford V
I’m genuinely curious: Do we have any idea which denominations impose a duty on their clergy to preserve confidentiality? Every Sunday I read in the Style section of the Times of couples who are married by someone who has been licensed by the Universal Church (I think it’s called) to perform w

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread hamilton02
No question. They can be helped just as believers might not be! But that is separate from whether, as a legal matter, a privilege attaches. Marci A. Hamilton Paul R. Verkuil Chair in Public Law Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law Yeshiva University 55 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10003 (212) 790-

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread hamilton02
That is now how the courts have read it. Marci A. Hamilton Paul R. Verkuil Chair in Public Law Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law Yeshiva University 55 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10003 (212) 790-0215 http://sol-reform.com -Original Message- From: Volokh, Eugene To: Law & Religio

The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Volokh, Eugene
I don’t know how it is in other states, but Cal. Evid Code 1030-1034 absolutely covers any “communication made in confidence, in the presence of no third person so far as the penitent is aware, to a member of the clergy who, in the course of the discipline or practice of the cler

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Steven Jamar
Sandy and Marci, I agree my conversations were not and should not have been privileged. But it is not the case that non-believers cannot be helped by priests either in a priest/pentitent setting or less formally. Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Directo

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread hamilton02
Steve-- That may be true in your experience, but it doesn't make those discussions "confessional" for purposes of the clergy-penitent privilege. It typically requires a showing that the discussion was not counseling, therapy, or simply an exchange of information. Rather, it must be for salvati

RE: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Levinson, Sanford V
I have no doubt that Steve is accurately reporting his own experience, but I still don't see why it should add up to a confidentiality privilege. sandy From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Jamar Sent: Thursday, December 05, 201

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Steven Jamar
I disagree with Eugene on this — as a non-religious athiest, I have met many ministers and priests with whom I have had excellent conversations, some even “confessional” or at least very candid and have been given advice, even by priests, which was insightful and helpful and respectful of me. T

Re: third party burdens

2013-12-05 Thread Nelson Tebbe
Nathan, I agree with you here: it would be much better if there were an employee participating in the litigation who could make these claims in a more concrete way! But that doesn't mean they can't be aired, I hope. Nelson From: Nathan Chapman mailto:nathan.s.chap...@gmail.com>> Date: Dece

RE: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Volokh, Eugene
I’m sure there are some such situations, perhaps even quite a few. But I imagine there are quite a few situations where the priest would quite rightly not give me the advice that works for me given my philosophical worldview. The benefit of the clergy-penitent privilege to the

Re: third party burdens

2013-12-05 Thread Nathan Chapman
Nelson, I look forward to your blog post. As to the first, this case seems a poor vehicle because no party is complaining about RFRA applying only to religious objectors. Second, I think parties are usually better at focusing a court's analysis of their interests than others are, ergo the ordina

RE: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Sisk, Gregory C.
Actually, I think non-Catholics mostly would be pleasantly surprised, both on the receptivity of the priest-confessor and the wisdom of the response. To be sure, there are some misdeeds that are shared in confession that are understood to be such solely from the perspective of the Catholic beli

RE: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Volokh, Eugene
My sense is that I (as someone who is irreligious) would get relatively little solace or even wise counsel from speaking to an average Catholic priest about my troubles and misdeeds, at least unless I was at least contemplating converting to Catholicism. Unsurprisingly, the prie

RE: Free Exercise, compelled subsidies, and Abood

2013-12-05 Thread Volokh, Eugene
I'm sorry that I misunderstood Micah's points; I thought they were just about applying the law, but on reflection I see how they included a policy question about the merits of RFRA. Let me try to tentatively respond to this, as someone who is not one of RFRA's biggest boosters.

Re: third party burdens

2013-12-05 Thread Nelson Tebbe
Nathan Thanks so much for these perceptive thoughts. We are going to post something soon on balkinization about the substantiality of burdens on third parties, but in the interim I'd like to respond to some of your points (solely on my own behalf). First, the establishment clause analysis

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Marci Hamilton
It depends on the state actually. But generally the "confession" must be for spiritual/salvation purposes Marci A. Hamilton Verkuil Chair in Public Law Benjamin N. Cardozo Law School Yeshiva University @Marci_Hamilton On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Paul Horwitz wrote: > Is that accurate? It

Re: The clergy-penitent privilege and burdens on third parties

2013-12-05 Thread Paul Horwitz
Is that accurate? It may vary, but I thought the privilege could be claimed for any confidential communication made to a clergy member in his/her professional capacity as a spiritual advisor. The person seeking that counsel need not necessarily be a co-communicant. I don't think this is just hai

Re: Comparing religious exemptions and free speech

2013-12-05 Thread Rick Duncan
I am coming in very late on this. Sorry. But Eugene's most recent post about 3rd-party harms caused by religious conduct (as opposed to communicative impact) caused me to think about other constitutionally-protected conduct that may result in 3rd party harms. Moore v. City of East Cleveland com

third party burdens

2013-12-05 Thread Nathan Chapman
I have enjoyed the discussion of the third party burden issue. Thanks to all, especially Nelson and Micah for kicking it off. I would add a couple of thoughts to Eugene’s argument against applying the Establishment Clause to limit RFRA in these cases. http://www.volokh.com/2013/12/04/3b-grant

Re: Free Exercise, compelled subsidies, and Abood

2013-12-05 Thread Micah Schwartzman
I'll stop after this, but I realize that RFRA requires strict scrutiny for substantial burdens on religion. Under that standard, if Knox and United Foods are right about Abood, then, by analogy, Hobby Lobby should be a relatively easy case. Here, Glickman is relevant because the Court said that

RE: Free Exercise, compelled subsidies, and Abood

2013-12-05 Thread Volokh, Eugene
I would assume that what justifies the asymmetry is, in large measure, Congress's judgment. In RFRA, Congress said that substantial burdens on religious exercise lead to strict scrutiny. Substantial burdens include compulsion to do what one thinks is religiously forbidden; that