Re: Oversized fire pump

Water guys always seem worried about sucking the gaskets in on bell slip on ftgs. I also know they get nervous about some old concrete pipe. I think some are nervous anytime there is above background, daily use, flow. Best Bruce > On Feb 16, 2016, at 16:17, Brad Casterline wrote: > > I don

RE: Oversized fire pump

I don't doubt damage due to half-baked instalations Steve but I'm sitting here unable to think of any pipe or fittings with a minimum pressure rating :) On Feb 16, 2016 5:56 PM, "Steve Leyton" wrote: > I have not witnessed but know of at least one public main cavitation that > occurred when a fir

Re: Oversized fire pump

might be because the real OPERATIONAL limit on inlet pressure is 0 psi absolute pressure not gauge pressure. Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org >

RE: Oversized fire pump

I have not witnessed but know of at least one public main cavitation that occurred when a fire official insisted on ramping an acceptance test up to 150% even though public main improvements that were intended to serve the property were still 2 weeks from completion. Adjacent landscape and dom

RE: Oversized fire pump

Raise your hand if you've ever seen a fire pump colapse a water main, or know anyone who has I put a dry drinking straw in my mouth, my right pointer finger on the other end and suck- easy to colapse the straw bcz air is 780 times less dense than water. If the straw was water filled, would I have t

RE: Oversized fire pump

The contamination issue typically resolves itself when the pump shuts off. And yes, I am told by Departments I'm familiar with that if there are lives, high value property, or environmental damage risk associated with the fire they are fighting, they do not hesitate to take the suction below 0

RE: Oversized fire pump

I suspect the real reason is the fear of a catastrophic event allowing the pump to flow 150% or more in volume. Maybe the sprinkler system is overwhelmed or a major sprinkler main breaks or whatever. A collapsed underground main could lead to some major headaches, not the least of which would

Re: Oversized fire pump

Art, Yes, but I can’t speak for all. I was taught to worry about low suction pressures. If I’m a pump operator and the suction line is soft and low inlet pressure, I was required to immediately notify fire command so they could determine if interior fire fighters need to be pulled out of the

RE: Oversized fire pump

Low suction pressures aggravate water pollution is the argument. That's why we have BFP devices. Do fire dept. Pumper operators worry about suction psi? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: Sprinkler

Re: Tyco CC sprinklers / draft curtain

So in other words there was no heat flow barrier used in the U.L. test. On Feb 16, 2016 12:21 PM, "Travis Mack, SET" wrote: > My customer was the one that contacted Tyco. He stated that they couldn't > give a solid answer. I am not certain of the exact conversation. I did > contact another spr

RE: Oversized fire pump

So the essence of that regulation is to preserve the ability to flush the toilet at the expense of fighting a fire and saving a life. Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent:

RE: Oversized fire pump

In Ohio we are required to provide a low suction control panel that will shut the pump off and sound an alarm. Later we now must provide a pressure sustaining valve that throttles the fire pump discharge flow to maintain a predetermined low suction pressure 10 psi on the suction to protect the publ

Re: Tyco CC sprinklers / draft curtain

My customer was the one that contacted Tyco. He stated that they couldn't give a solid answer. I am not certain of the exact conversation. I did contact another sprinkler manufacturer that also makes a similar sprinkler. They did not get back to me upon stating they needed to do more researc

Re: Tyco CC sprinklers / draft curtain

Its a shame Tyco couldn't give you an answer... had you contacted them three months ago, they probably would have helped you out the first time. Benjamin Young On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Travis Mack, SET wrote: > Well, we got some input that follows with as I expected. > > Tyco could no

RE: Date on gauges

Mike, I think where he is coming from is he is used to seeing the dates on the face of the gauges and now the date is missing. He is asking if the code changed or why are the dates are no longer required. C.Gregg Key SET Key Fire Protection Enterprises,LLC 3200 Mike Padgett Hwy. Augusta, GA. 30

Re: Date on gauges

We just have our guys write the month and year in paint marker on the back when they put them in. If an AHJ wants more than something reasonable like that or the stickers you mentioned, ask them to direct you to the code requirement, or even just say "we can't find this in the code, can you hel

Re: Date on gauges

It does not state anywhere in 25 about where the date comes from, just replace or tested every 5 years. In the 2014 edition of the NFPA 25 Handbook on page 153 after 5.3.2.2, it states that the 5 year period is based on the install date not the manufacture date. Try telling that to an AHJ! *Jay

Date on gauges

Where can I find the requirement for the date being printed on the gauge? Some new gauges are coming out with only a sticker that you can write the date on and put on gauge. C.Gregg Key SET Key Fire Protection Enterprises,LLC 3200 Mike Padgett Hwy. Augusta, GA. 30906 706-790-3473 Office 706-738

Re: Tyco CC sprinklers / draft curtain

Well, we got some input that follows with as I expected. Tyco could not provide a definitive answer. Viking Technical Services said they needed to research and would call back, but they never did. AFSA provided an informal interp that follows as I was expecting. The short version is that it

RE: Oversized fire pump

Capt Herrick, I'm skeptical that a smaller impeller will solve a flow issue because I figured out how to calc impeller diameter based solely on rated psi and rpm. I'll get my mouth ready for some humble pie though and check out your links :) Brad, Overland Park, Kansas On Feb 16, 2016 10:44 AM, "

RE: Oversized fire pump

You might consider trimming or replacing the impeller. Contact the manufacture, provide them with your most recent data, and flow test results. These websites might provide some useful information: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38944.pdf http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sour

Re: Oversized fire pump

Mark, The 18 psi suction pressure is at the suction flange of the pump. There is friction loss in the underground piping and BFP so the pressure at the street will be greater. Given we have a steep curve (90 static and goes to 0 at 1900 gpm) and the size of the pump (1500 at 85), I am concerned

RE: Oversized fire pump

Todd, When you talk about drawing the suction pressure down to 20 psi, is your reference point at the pump suction gauge, or at the connection to the city water main? Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]

Re: Room Design Method

Can you calc 1500 sq ft, but eliminate the sprinklers in the closet and bathroom in the calcs? Reference NFPA 13 23.4.4.6.2. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.f

Re: Room Design Method

I realized I got my wires crossed right after I hit send. What was bothering me I think is applying small room to ec heads due to figuring minimum square. Thx, Brad On Feb 16, 2016 9:55 AM, "Jay Stough" wrote: > Not in the data sheets. I thought the 5 sprinkler minimum was for > area/density.

Re: Room Design Method

Not in the data sheets. I thought the 5 sprinkler minimum was for area/density. I specifically picked this room to use because there are only 4 of these out of over 60 rooms, the rest being single sized rooms. This is a double size room that has 2 ext sprinklers and 3 standard coverage sprinklers

Re: Oversized fire pump

No the water supply was the same. Not sure where this came from but could be an IOR mistake. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2] On Tue, Feb

Re: Room Design Method

Jay, for the first part where he's questioning what you can use for design, throw 11.1.1 back at him (this was added to the 2007 edition) 11.1.1 A building or portion thereof shall be permitted to be protected in accordance with any applicable design basis at the discretion of the designer. I've

RE: Oversized fire pump

It may have been sized correctly in 2009 but the municipal water supply has degraded since then. Suction control valve is the way to go to fix the problem. That will keep the supply from being drawn down below 20 psi. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500

Re: Room Design Method

Is min. calc 5 ec heads req. by product data? Brad On Feb 16, 2016 9:39 AM, "Jay Stough" wrote: > This is an I-2 occupancy and I don't think NJ allows residential design in > this category. If that is allowed, that will work. Is John Drucker > reading? > > > *Jay Stough* > NICET IV LAYOUT > NI

Re: Room Design Method

This is an I-2 occupancy and I don't think NJ allows residential design in this category. If that is allowed, that will work. Is John Drucker reading? *Jay Stough* NICET IV LAYOUT NICET III ITM On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Matt Grise wrote: > Just out of curiosity - why no residential he

Re: Room Design Method

As many forget, you can use the small room criteria for residential sprinklers. You take area of room divided by number of sprinklers to get your area per sprinkler to apply the 0.10 density. That is assuming your compartments meet the criteria for small rooms. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC

RE: Room Design Method

Just out of curiosity - why no residential heads? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II   Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection 130 w 9th Ave. North Kansas City, MO 64116 *Licensed in KS & MO   913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.526.7443 cell www. AFPsprink.com   -Original Message-

Re: Room Design Method

Unfortunately I cannot use residential sprinklers. The sprinklers in the rooms are extended coverage 11.2K with 5.6K in the bathroom and closets. I calced 2- 11.2 & 5- 5.6K sprinklers. *Jay Stough* NICET IV LAYOUT NICET III ITM On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 6:56 AM, Matt Grise wrote: > Room design

RE: Oversized fire pump

Hard to say what EOR decided was need for the new cancer center. We had a 500 gpm pump that could not meet 150% capacity (barely got 100% before the pressure dropped to 0 psi) during the annual tests. Building owner hired an engineer and his solution was to replace the pump with a new 750 gpm v

RE: Oversized fire pump

It sounds like the 1,000 gpm standpipe demand is the worst case. If so, you should be fine and there should be instructions/signage provided at the pump about limiting flows during pump tests. Looks like a Mechanical Engineer was involved in replacing the previous pump; or a contractor talked so

Re: Oversized fire pump

Meeting demand is not an issue for sprinklers. Not sure about standpipes but demand Dow would be no more than 1000 gpm. Interesting side note: this pump replaced a 1000 gpm at 100 psi which would have worked fine with the water. Anecdotally, this pump was upsize because it was needed for the new 2

RE: Oversized fire pump

You can flow 126% of rated capacity, may not be a problem if you are meeting your system demand. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com 904-781-8227 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerfor

RE: Oversized fire pump

Do you know what the system demand is? Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com 904-781-8227 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Will

Re: Oversized fire pump

The water supply goes to 0 at roughly 1900 gpm Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2] On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Michael Hill wrote: Do yo

Re: Oversized fire pump

To check that you are OK: 1. see what is the NPSHR for the pump from its performance curve. This will reduce the safety margin a bit. 2. know that if P,suction mentioned is upstream of the impeller, lower pressures exist in the eye of the impeller. 3. listen, use stethoscope as old-time mecha

RE: Oversized fire pump

Your concerns are valid. I would recommend the water purveyor be involved. Carefully run the pump to 150%, with them there after they say dropping the supply to less than 20 is ok. Otherwise, it is an acceptance issue. I have run into lower supply's that have caused me to fail systems, even with

RE: Oversized fire pump

NFPA 20, 4.14.3.1 tells me to be 0 or higher on the suction side. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com 904-781-8227 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.o

Re: Oversized fire pump

My concern is that the 18 psi suction pressure occurs at rated flow. Since the pump has the capacity to flow at 150%, is there a danger of dropping the suction pressure dangerously low. The building is a hospital. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (

Re: Oversized fire pump

Unless the water purveyor or local ordinance has a 20 psi minimum requirement, there's no reason they'd have to provide a safeguard. It's a common limit, but it's a rule of thumb unless codified as it's not in most of the common building codes and standards. That said, if they have pressure to

RE: Oversized fire pump

Do you have positive pressure when testing for 150% capacity? Mike Hill -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 7:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE:

RE: Oversized fire pump

That might be a little too low pressure for the water company. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II   Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection 130 w 9th Ave. North Kansas City, MO 64116 *Licensed in KS & MO   913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.526.7443 cell www. AFPsprink.com   -Origina

RE: Oversized fire pump

If you maintaining 18 psi on the suction side with the pump running, why would you do anything? Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com 904-781-8227 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum

RE: Oversized fire pump

How about a suction control valve? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II   Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection 130 w 9th Ave. North Kansas City, MO 64116 *Licensed in KS & MO   913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.526.7443 cell www. AFPsprink.com   -Original Message- From: Sprinkle

Oversized fire pump

I am working on a facility with a fire pump that was oversized for the available public water supply. The pump is 1500 gpm at 85 psi. At 1500 gpm, the suction pressure drops to 18 psi. This is characteristic of the water supply and is not due to a shut valve or other obstruction. The pump was in

RE: Room Design Method

Room design seems applicable. Especially since you did an area density calc in the spot that is causing concern. I suppose I see what he means: "all rooms" could be interpreted as "every single room in the building". You might also try the residential head calc (if you are using residential he

Room Design Method

I have a building we are designing that is shaped like an W l___l___l. It is a senior living center, two floors. They are using the 2007 edition of 13. I have done three calculations to prove that different areas using different piping layouts are good. The center, core area I did 1500 sq ft d