Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[john whelan]

Having just witnessed  a major screw up by a local University who didn't
understand how we do things and managed to both mess up the map and the 150
student assignments a wiki community written guideline would be a good
start.

The intentions were good but the impact wasn't for both sides and it would
be nice to avoid similar situations in future.

Perhaps something in learnOSM or a pointer in there.  Make it easy to find
for those who are thinking of giving students an assignment especially if
it will count towards their final grade.

Thanks John

On 18 October 2017 at 06:31, Yves  wrote:

> That's a good point, starting with an OSMF guideline, then after a while,
> a policy if needed.
> Or do you mean a wiki community written guideline?
> Yves
>
> Le 18 octobre 2017 03:05:28 GMT+02:00, john whelan 
> a écrit :
>>
>> Probably what we could do with is a set of guidelines for people
>> organising mapping groups.  This is not policy so much as best practices.
>>
>> Could this be done before we thrash out a policy?
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2017 8:27 pm, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> the results are in!
>>>
>>> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/Resul
>>> ts_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone who participated.
>>>
>>> Bye
>>> Frederik
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Yves]

That's a good point, starting with an OSMF guideline, then after a while, a 
policy if needed. 
Or do you mean a wiki community written guideline? 
Yves 

Le 18 octobre 2017 03:05:28 GMT+02:00, john whelan  a 
écrit :
>Probably what we could do with is a set of guidelines for people
>organising
>mapping groups.  This is not policy so much as best practices.
>
>Could this be done before we thrash out a policy?
>
>Thanks John
>
>On 17 Oct 2017 8:27 pm, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> the results are in!
>>
>> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/
>> Results_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017
>>
>> Thank you everyone who participated.
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
>E008°23'33"
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[john whelan]

Probably what we could do with is a set of guidelines for people organising
mapping groups.  This is not policy so much as best practices.

Could this be done before we thrash out a policy?

Thanks John

On 17 Oct 2017 8:27 pm, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> the results are in!
>
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/
> Results_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017
>
> Thank you everyone who participated.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

the results are in!

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group/Results_of_Organised_Editing_Survey_2017

Thank you everyone who participated.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Frederik Ramm]

Everyone,

On 20.09.2017 06:51, Paul Norman wrote:
> The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
> policy covering paid mapping.

We plan to close the survey on Sunday night (at 23:59:59 UTC), that's 2
days and 16 hours from now. We'll then take some time to analyze the
results and share them with you, then draft a policy informed by the
results and the discussion here and elsewhere, and present that for
further discussion.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Greg Troxel]

I think the survey asks excellent questions.

One nit is that while I think the notion of paid/organized as a single
notion is generally good, I do see a distinction in one area, and might
have answered the anonymous question differently for the two sub-groups.

Besides paid and unpaid, there is also the question of students in a
class.  While they aren't paid, it seems much closer to the paid case,
because the leader has control over them.  So perhaps even if the
mappers are unpaid, they should be considered in the paid category if
there is any kind of power relationship with the leader that is larger
than just deciding to participate in a mapping activity.

For example, if I offered a class through the local adult ed "intro to
mapping with osm", and people signed up, that would be just about that
class, people would have signed up only to learn, not to get any
credentialss, there are no grades, etc., so this is merely organized not
paid.  But if as part of a college degree program, one of the classes
expects people to learn to map, and how you do affects grades etc., that
is far more like paid in terms of the obligation to comply.

I think the notion that the line is crossed when someone begins to act
as other than an individual mapper who intends to contribute over the
long term.  Deferring to one's group leader when questioned is clear
evidence of this.

I agree that many of the possible problems can arise similarly for paid
and un-paid organized mappers.  However, for paid mapping, there is a
much more serious possible conflict of interest in terms of the paid
mapper optimizing for the metrics of how they are paid rather than the
good of the overall project.  I suspect that the unpaid organized
mappers are trying to make the map better, even if for some particular
user.

I wonder if paying for number of objects added, vs by the hour, is more
likely to be problematic.


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[OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Satoshi IIDA]

いいだです。

OSMFのDWG（Data Working Group, データ作業部会）より、アンケートの依頼が行われました。

内容としては、特定のプロジェクトなどにおいて、有償でデータ編集を行ったり、
あるいは、例えば学校の課題などに代表される組織的な活動を行う際のポリシー策定について、
どのような規約や取り決めを定めてゆくべきか、という内容になっています。

なお、このアンケートで想定される対象は、有償あるいは組織的なマッピングです。
例えばマッピングパーティなどで初心者に対して講習しながら作業する、というような、
小規模でアドホックな集まりに関しては検討の対象外となります。

アンケート調査は、以下のURLから可能です。
The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554


また、内容が英語で回答ができない、というかたのために、私家訳ではありますが、
こちらにアンケートの内容について、翻訳を置きました。
参考までにご利用ください。
誤訳などあれば、ご指摘いただけると助かります。

アンケートは選択式になっていて、文字入力するのは「あなたの住んでいる地域は？」の部分だけです。
だいたいのかたは「Japan」と入力いただければ大丈夫と思います。

http://qiita.com/nyampire/items/c801b0bc562436951f9a




-- Forwarded message --
From: Paul Norman <penor...@mac.com>
Date: 2017-09-20 13:51 GMT+09:00
Subject: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing
To: Talk Openstreetmap <t...@openstreetmap.org>


The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
policy covering paid mapping.

When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
their contributions.

The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
directed to work on OSM.

These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
more widely known.

In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
community about which accounts edit for the team.

We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.

Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
third party, but where no money is paid.

The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

-- 
Paul Norman
For the OSM Data Working Group


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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[James]

Thank you Frederik for the clearification, so a Stammtisch as you call it
would not be affected by the policy unless there was outside
influence(unexperienced mapper that says map this in osm, example:
political/voting districts(which is why the policy would be there to tell
them that this is not appropriate for osm))

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 20.09.2017 13:17, James wrote:
> > Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little mapathons?
> > Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal or
> > Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an organised
> > event. Would they be included as well?
> >
> > The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> > interpretation.
>
> It is likely that any policy we come up with later will also leave room
> for interpretation and this will be necessary to make it work.
>
> I think they key issues are choice and responsibility. If you have a
> group of experienced mappers getting together and doing something, then
> they are not "told by a third party what to map"; they do what they
> would otherwise do, just together. They act as individuals vis-a-vis the
> community, they feel responsible for their edits, and there's no need to
> put up rules. They're no different from a mapping party of old.
>
> If you have, on the other hand, a group of people who have never mapped
> and who "just follow orders" (whether written or spoken), and who when
> challenged about their edits would likely shrug and say "I just did what
> the lead sidewalk mapping guy said, you'll have to take it up with him",
> then that's clearly organised mapping.
>
> There's a grey area in between, especially since you might have both
> types of contributors mixed at an event, but also because you can choose
> different words to describe the same event.
>
> Certainly "organised" doesn't simply mean that someone gets a room an
> pizza. They would have to provide instruction and guidance too.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[James]

It was an example of "organised editing". If a "local group" invites
newbies/other people to edit a specific thing (sidewalks, buildings, roads
etc) does that policy cover them as well or are they counted more as
"normal mapping"? One could argue that: "We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
third party, but where no money is paid.". A local group could tell the
group what and how to map as much as a outside company could do the same.
I'm asking where do you draw the line on who is an organised mapper vs
normal mapper(to which the new policy wouldn't apply)

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 7:46 AM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Wednesday 20 September 2017, James wrote:
> > Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little
> > mapathons? Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto,
> > Montreal or Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an
> > organised event. Would they be included as well?
> >
> > The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> > interpretation.
>
> I think you are misunderstanding the idea of the survey here - this is
> not a vote on a regulation of organized editing, it is meant to gather
> opinions of OSM community members on the matter.  Classifying organized
> editing activities in a fine grained way would be beyond the scope of
> such a simple exploratory survey.
>
> You can be sure the DWG knows that there is a broad range of organized
> editing activities and that even within the definitions given for the
> survey there is room for interpretation.
>
> --
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> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 20.09.2017 13:17, James wrote:
> Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little mapathons?
> Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal or
> Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an organised
> event. Would they be included as well?
> 
> The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> interpretation.

It is likely that any policy we come up with later will also leave room
for interpretation and this will be necessary to make it work.

I think they key issues are choice and responsibility. If you have a
group of experienced mappers getting together and doing something, then
they are not "told by a third party what to map"; they do what they
would otherwise do, just together. They act as individuals vis-a-vis the
community, they feel responsible for their edits, and there's no need to
put up rules. They're no different from a mapping party of old.

If you have, on the other hand, a group of people who have never mapped
and who "just follow orders" (whether written or spoken), and who when
challenged about their edits would likely shrug and say "I just did what
the lead sidewalk mapping guy said, you'll have to take it up with him",
then that's clearly organised mapping.

There's a grey area in between, especially since you might have both
types of contributors mixed at an event, but also because you can choose
different words to describe the same event.

Certainly "organised" doesn't simply mean that someone gets a room an
pizza. They would have to provide instruction and guidance too.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 20 September 2017, James wrote:
> Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little
> mapathons? Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto,
> Montreal or Ottawa decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an
> organised event. Would they be included as well?
>
> The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
> interpretation.

I think you are misunderstanding the idea of the survey here - this is 
not a vote on a regulation of organized editing, it is meant to gather 
opinions of OSM community members on the matter.  Classifying organized 
editing activities in a fine grained way would be beyond the scope of 
such a simple exploratory survey.

You can be sure the DWG knows that there is a broad range of organized 
editing activities and that even within the definitions given for the 
survey there is room for interpretation.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[James]

Also does organised mapping include groups that hold little mapathons?
Example a local mapping group from Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal or Ottawa
decide to say map sidewalks in their city. It's an organised event. Would
they be included as well?

The terms used in this survey seem a little vague and can be left to
interpretation.

On Sep 20, 2017 7:09 AM, "john whelan"  wrote:

> In the case of organised mapping such as the Statistics Canada organised
> efforts whom would you like to respond?
>
> Remembering that some of the terms used in the survey such as change set
> are such that a senior manager wouldn't have the faintest idea of what the
> term means and some of the players may have moved on to other projects?
>
> Perhaps one question might be did you consult with local mappers before
> the project?
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 00:51, Paul Norman  wrote:
>
>> The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
>> policy covering paid mapping.
>>
>> When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
>> contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
>> and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
>> their contributions.
>>
>> The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
>> more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
>> up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
>> specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
>> directed to work on OSM.
>>
>> These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
>> contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
>> more widely known.
>>
>> In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
>> between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
>> OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
>> organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
>> transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
>> voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
>> community about which accounts edit for the team.
>>
>> We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
>> policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
>> expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
>> planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
>> team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.
>>
>> Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
>> paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
>> someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
>> how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
>> organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
>> third party, but where no money is paid.
>>
>> The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554
>>
>> --
>> Paul Norman
>> For the OSM Data Working Group
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[john whelan]

In the case of organised mapping such as the Statistics Canada organised
efforts whom would you like to respond?

Remembering that some of the terms used in the survey such as change set
are such that a senior manager wouldn't have the faintest idea of what the
term means and some of the players may have moved on to other projects?

Perhaps one question might be did you consult with local mappers before the
project?

Cheerio John

On 20 September 2017 at 00:51, Paul Norman  wrote:

> The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
> policy covering paid mapping.
>
> When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
> contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
> and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
> their contributions.
>
> The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
> more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
> up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
> specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
> directed to work on OSM.
>
> These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
> contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
> more widely known.
>
> In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
> between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
> OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
> organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
> transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
> voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
> community about which accounts edit for the team.
>
> We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
> policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
> expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
> planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
> team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.
>
> Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
> paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
> someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
> how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
> organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
> third party, but where no money is paid.
>
> The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554
>
> --
> Paul Norman
> For the OSM Data Working Group
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 20 September 2017, Paul Norman wrote:
>
> The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

Looks good.

To get a broad spectrum of opinions i would encourage everyone to 
participate - even those who usually just map on their own without much 
interaction with the community outside mapping itself.

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[OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[joost schouppe]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Paul Norman <penor...@mac.com>
Date: 2017-09-20 6:51 GMT+02:00
Subject: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing
To: Talk Openstreetmap <t...@openstreetmap.org>


The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
policy covering paid mapping.

When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
their contributions.

The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
directed to work on OSM.

These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
more widely known.

In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
community about which accounts edit for the team.

We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.

Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
third party, but where no money is paid.

The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

-- 
Paul Norman
For the OSM Data Working Group


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Re: [OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Nicolás Alvarez]

2017-09-20 1:51 GMT-03:00 Paul Norman :
> The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
> policy covering paid mapping.

Thanks for this, I think it's an important topic. In Argentina we're
dealing with an organization or program that is "teaching" school
teachers to map (more like telling them to do it without any actual
instruction). This leads to thousands of accounts making <5 edits
each, usually breaking something in the process, and the local mapper
community is struggling to identify them and keep up with the cleanup.
I can elaborate on this particular case if you're interested (too
tired for that right now).

> The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

Grammar error or typo: "Individual mappers can expected to
communicate". Is this supposed to be "can expect to" or "can be
expected to"?

-- 
Nicolás

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[OSM-talk] DWG survey on organised editing

[Paul Norman]

The Data Working Group is conducting a survey as part of its work on a
policy covering paid mapping.

When OpenStreetMap started, it was largely a project of hobbyists
contributing to OSM in their spare time. They chose freely what to map
and which tools to use, and they took individual responsibility for
their contributions.

The continuing growth and popularity of OSM have also brought more and
more organised mapping efforts, mostly in the form of companies setting
up paid data teams to improve OSM data in specific regions or for
specific use cases, but also unpaid groups like school classes that are
directed to work on OSM.

These organised mapping efforts are an integral part of today's OSM
contribution landscape and, when done well, help make OSM better and
more widely known.

In order to ensure good communication, and a level playing field,
between individual community members and organised editing groups, the
OSMF Data Working Group has been tasked with developing guidelines for
organised groups. These guidelines will above all set out some
transparency requirements for organised groups - things that are already
voluntarily followed by most groups today, like informing the mapping
community about which accounts edit for the team.

We have prepared the following survey with a few questions about such a
policy to give us a better understanding of what the mapping community
expects from such a policy. The survey is aimed at everyone editing (or
planning to edit) in OSM, whether as individual mappers or as part of a
team, and your answers will help us in fleshing out a draft policy.

Within the scope of the survey, and the policy to be written, we define
paid mapping (or paid editing) as any editing in OSM performed by
someone who is told by a third party what to map (and potentially also
how to map it) and who receives money in exchange. We define other
organised mapping (or editing) as any editing that is also steered by a
third party, but where no money is paid.

The survey is available at https://osm-dwg.limequery.org/741554

--
Paul Norman
For the OSM Data Working Group


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