Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi all! I work together with Erik Matsson who also have written in this thread (in August). For those of you who haven’t read his message, we work at Appello that owns the navigation application Wisepilot. It is through Wisepilot those anonymous notes have been posted. First of all, thanks for your input. All ideas about how we can improve the quality of the notes are very much appreciated. We have made some first changes on the server side of our application based on your input. We will also make further improvements as we are releasing new client versions. We have changed so that only registered and authenticated users are allowed to post notes for now. Hopefully we can later allow anonymous notes to be posted again when we have made some more improvements to prevent spam notes (sanity checks, more useful info in the notes and provide the users with more information about what happens when they post a note). Notes about wrong/missing speed limit now looks like in the example below (always in English). We changed the message to make it clearer that the reported speed is what it should be changed to in the map data. We also made it clear that it is reported using Wisepilot and added a link to our site if someone wants to contact us. = Reported and assumed correct speed limit is 30 km/h. Reported using Wisepilot map reporter Created by www.appello.com = If a user tries to report speed limits like 15, 25, 35 km/h we ignore the note and do not post it (still possible when mph). Also, in upcoming releases of the client we will try to make something smart so that km/h or mph is automatically selected depending on the user’s position (at least make it more clear what one is reporting). Like Andreas Vilén suspected, our default position was sometimes used when posting a note. It is users who have not yet gotten a real GPS fix (probably in combination with that they do not understand the reporting functionality). In coming releases of our client we will add a check in the clients that it is not a simulated position but a real GPS fix (we also think of adding the GPS accuracy to the note). To prevent old clients from reporting the default positions we now ignore notes with a position that is near the default position. In coming client releases we will also check the heading and add that to the notes as well (like Christian Quest suggested, N, NW, etc). If you have ideas related to sharing GPS traces it would be interesting to hear about them, as this is a feature we plan to add. Don’t hesitate to contact us if you have questions or ideas of how we can make things better. Best regards, Pelle -- Per Rosengren Deputy Head of Engineering Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden Phone: +4670-6858253 Mail: per.roseng...@appello.commailto:per.roseng...@appello.com Web: www.appello.comapplewebdata://D15576C0-CD44-42A9-B5CC-684A0DB0D998/www.appello.com%20 [Description: cid:image001.png@01CD2D3A.F4FA4D50] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Not that I want to create even more problems but 35 km/h is a typical max speed in many rural towns in Iceland. These are often 4-5 street towns with a major road going through 1 of them so they see the need to severely limit the speed. It is up to each municipality to select max speed and some of them are in the ?5 ranges. Thanks for the communication and hope it all works well for everyone. Still haven't seen a single Wisepilot node being created in Iceland, Faroes or Botswana yet. --Jói Þann 08.09.2014 15:05, Per Rosengren reit: If a user tries to report speed limits like 15, 25, 35 km/h we ignore the note and do not post it (still possible when mph). Also, in upcoming releases of the client we will try to make something smart so that km/h or mph is automatically selected depending on the user’s position (at least make it more clear what one is reporting). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 09/08/2014 05:05 PM, Per Rosengren wrote: Like Andreas Vilén suspected, our default position was sometimes used when posting a note. It is users who have not yet gotten a real GPS fix (probably in combination with that they do not understand the reporting functionality). In coming releases of our client we will add a check in the clients that it is not a simulated position but a real GPS fix (we also think of adding the GPS accuracy to the note). To prevent old clients from reporting the default positions we now ignore notes with a position that is near the default position. In coming client releases we will also check the heading and add that to the notes as well (like Christian Quest suggested, N, NW, etc). Are you actually routing in your software? So would you be able to say (or help the user say by suggesting the street names around him) something like No turn left into Foo coming from Baz? by knowing which street your user currently is on. Since I found mostly the No turn possible messages completely off. To be honest I've not seen a single message that could be actually resolved (from my desk) since there was either no crossing or too many of them near the note, so it was simply impossible to guess what crossing should be fixed. And, if you know which street your user is on, could you do some more checks (maybe on your server and not on the users device) when speed limits are reported for streets with variable speed limits? There may be a speed limit when the users passes the sign but that limit might change only minutes later, so these notes are just creating noise at the moment. Thanks for posting updates here and trying to improve your reporting feature. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi Per, thanks for your reply to the thread here. My suggestion regarding GPS traces would be twofold: 1) it would be great to have more gps traces alltogether in general, so a general upload of traces would be ideal, but it requires teaching the users about the danger of it, and uploading traces should probably be under a collective account of your company to obfuscate personal home locations and such. Another idea here would be to cut the first and last parts of traces to obfuscate this. 2) Whenever a speed limit has been submitted the note you create from that should ideally link to the corresponding gps track. This would enable to get the direction directly (no heading necessary) and - if the speed is included by at least relative timestamps in the trace - the speed limit might be better to locate if the driver adjusts his speed according to the current limit (which often is the case I think). Both of this requires a really careful information of the user as those data in theory may contain or leak private information. regards Peter Am 08.09.2014 um 17:05 schrieb Per Rosengren: Hi all! I work together with Erik Matsson who also have written in this thread (in August). For those of you who haven’t read his message, we work at Appello that owns the navigation application Wisepilot. It is through Wisepilot those anonymous notes have been posted. First of all, thanks for your input. All ideas about how we can improve the quality of the notes are very much appreciated. We have made some first changes on the server side of our application based on your input. We will also make further improvements as we are releasing new client versions. We have changed so that only registered and authenticated users are allowed to post notes for now. Hopefully we can later allow anonymous notes to be posted again when we have made some more improvements to prevent spam notes (sanity checks, more useful info in the notes and provide the users with more information about what happens when they post a note). Notes about wrong/missing speed limit now looks like in the example below (always in English). We changed the message to make it clearer that the reported speed is what it should be changed to in the map data. We also made it clear that it is reported using Wisepilot and added a link to our site if someone wants to contact us. = Reported and assumed correct speed limit is 30 km/h. Reported using Wisepilot map reporter Created by www.appello.com = If a user tries to report speed limits like 15, 25, 35 km/h we ignore the note and do not post it (still possible when mph). Also, in upcoming releases of the client we will try to make something smart so that km/h or mph is automatically selected depending on the user’s position (at least make it more clear what one is reporting). Like Andreas Vilén suspected, our default position was sometimes used when posting a note. It is users who have not yet gotten a real GPS fix (probably in combination with that they do not understand the reporting functionality). In coming releases of our client we will add a check in the clients that it is not a simulated position but a real GPS fix (we also think of adding the GPS accuracy to the note). To prevent old clients from reporting the default positions we now ignore notes with a position that is near the default position. In coming client releases we will also check the heading and add that to the notes as well (like Christian Quest suggested, N, NW, etc). If you have ideas related to sharing GPS traces it would be interesting to hear about them, as this is a feature we plan to add. Don’t hesitate to contact us if you have questions or ideas of how we can make things better. Best regards, Pelle -- Per Rosengren Deputy Head of Engineering Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden Phone: +4670-6858253 Mail: per.roseng...@appello.commailto:per.roseng...@appello.com Web: www.appello.comapplewebdata://D15576C0-CD44-42A9-B5CC-684A0DB0D998/www.appello.com%20 [Description: cid:image001.png@01CD2D3A.F4FA4D50] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:02 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I am aware that the USA has speed limits in multiples of 5 mph. I was suggesting that the app should use the GPS, or settings, to get some sensible locaiised values for speed limits values and mph/kph. 3mph / 5km/h is also a common enough speed limit that this value appears in the SHS as a common value for speed limit signs (usually used in scales, unusually tight service plazas, etc). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Il giorno 03/set/2014, alle ore 21:21, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org ha scritto: 3mph / 5km/h is also a common enough speed limit that this value appears in the SHS as a common value for speed limit signs (usually used in scales, unusually tight service plazas, etc). I've also seen 5km/h limits in Italy, eg on private ground, at ferry terminals and at the customs cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Is the app centering on central Stockholm when the gps on the mobile device isn't activated? There have been created probably about 100 notes on the exact same location in central Stockholm in all kinds of languages, probably by people trying to report actual errors, but don't realize their gps is deactivated. Maybe you could stop reports from being sent when the unit's gps is deactivated? /Andreas On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Erik Mattsson erik.matts...@appello.com wrote: Enabling users to submit GPS traces is definitely in our to-do list, unfortunately it didn’t make it into the first iteration. The position of the note is stored as soon as the user opens the report tab, so the user can edit it for a while and when it is sent it’s still the position when he opened the menu that gets sent with the report. Including the heading should be fairly simple, we have also planned to include the position accuracy in the notes. Thank you for your feedback. //Erik *From:* Christian Quest [mailto:cqu...@openstreetmap.fr] *Sent:* den 21 augusti 2014 08:35 *Cc:* OpenStreetMap *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that? More (automatic) details in the notes could be useful. For example: add the heading (something like N, NW, etc)... Also make sure you're creating the note at the earliest position and not when the report is saved/confirmed. Have you considered sharing GPS traces ? This would be another major datafeed to improve OSM data quality... 2014-08-19 16:47 GMT+02:00 p...@trigpoint.me.uk: Hi Eric Thanks for your comments, I have been having a play with wisepilot and do quite like it. Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out. I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits changed and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split the ways. The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else. Thanks Phil (trigpoint ) On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote: Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for our users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in this thread earlier. Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that tech savvy so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. This was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to address here. All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow anonymous posting but since it seems like too many spam posts gets created we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome. We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our application. This component is just one part of that. I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with more information about what happens with their reports. We will also look over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as the user does within the application and we did the assumption that users that drives in a country with imperial system also have the client set to imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this needs to be addressed. Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.com (or here on OSM-talk) with feedback or questions about this component or the application in general. We do
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
More (automatic) details in the notes could be useful. For example: add the heading (something like N, NW, etc)... Also make sure you're creating the note at the earliest position and not when the report is saved/confirmed. Have you considered sharing GPS traces ? This would be another major datafeed to improve OSM data quality... 2014-08-19 16:47 GMT+02:00 p...@trigpoint.me.uk: Hi Eric Thanks for your comments, I have been having a play with wisepilot and do quite like it. Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out. I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits changed and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split the ways. The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else. Thanks Phil (trigpoint ) On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote: Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for our users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in this thread earlier. Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that tech savvy so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. This was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to address here. All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow anonymous posting but since it seems like too many spam posts gets created we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome. We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our application. This component is just one part of that. I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with more information about what happens with their reports. We will also look over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as the user does within the application and we did the assumption that users that drives in a country with imperial system also have the client set to imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this needs to be addressed. Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.com (or here on OSM-talk) with feedback or questions about this component or the application in general. We do not want to create a lot of garbage reports that just ends up cluttering the database and never gets resolved, that's not beneficial for anyone. Best regards, -- Erik Mattsson Software Engineer Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden Phone: +4673-636 10 68 Mail: erik.matts...@appello.com Web: www.appello.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Sent from my Jolla ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Enabling users to submit GPS traces is definitely in our to-do list, unfortunately it didn't make it into the first iteration. The position of the note is stored as soon as the user opens the report tab, so the user can edit it for a while and when it is sent it's still the position when he opened the menu that gets sent with the report. Including the heading should be fairly simple, we have also planned to include the position accuracy in the notes. Thank you for your feedback. //Erik From: Christian Quest [mailto:cqu...@openstreetmap.fr] Sent: den 21 augusti 2014 08:35 Cc: OpenStreetMap Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that? More (automatic) details in the notes could be useful. For example: add the heading (something like N, NW, etc)... Also make sure you're creating the note at the earliest position and not when the report is saved/confirmed. Have you considered sharing GPS traces ? This would be another major datafeed to improve OSM data quality... 2014-08-19 16:47 GMT+02:00 p...@trigpoint.me.ukmailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk: Hi Eric Thanks for your comments, I have been having a play with wisepilot and do quite like it. Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out. I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits changed and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split the ways. The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else. Thanks Phil (trigpoint ) On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote: Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for our users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in this thread earlier. Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that tech savvy so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. This was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to address here. All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow anonymous posting but since it seems like too many spam posts gets created we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome. We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our application. This component is just one part of that. I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with more information about what happens with their reports. We will also look over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as the user does within the application and we did the assumption that users that drives in a country with imperial system also have the client set to imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this needs to be addressed. Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.commailto:supp...@appello.com (or here on OSM-talk) with feedback or questions about this component or the application in general. We do not want to create a lot of garbage reports that just ends up cluttering the database and never gets resolved, that's not beneficial for anyone. Best regards, -- Erik Mattsson Software Engineer Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden Phone: +4673-636 10 68 Mail: erik.matts...@appello.commailto:erik.matts...@appello.com Web: www.appello.comhttp://www.appello.com ___ talk mailing list talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for our users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in this thread earlier. Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that tech savvy so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. This was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to address here. All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow anonymous posting but since it seems like too many spam posts gets created we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome. We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our application. This component is just one part of that. I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with more information about what happens with their reports. We will also look over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as the user does within the application and we did the assumption that users that drives in a country with imperial system also have the client set to imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this needs to be addressed. Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.com (or here on OSM-talk) with feedback or questions about this component or the application in general. We do not want to create a lot of garbage reports that just ends up cluttering the database and never gets resolved, that's not beneficial for anyone. Best regards, -- Erik Mattsson Software Engineer Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden Phone: +4673-636 10 68 Mail: erik.matts...@appello.com Web: www.appello.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi Eric Thanks for your comments, I have been having a play with wisepilot and do quite like it. Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out. I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits changed and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split the ways. The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else. Thanks Phil (trigpoint ) On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote: Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for our users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in this thread earlier. Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that tech savvy so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. This was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to address here. All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow anonymous posting but since it seems like too many spam posts gets created we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome. We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our application. This component is just one part of that. I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with more information about what happens with their reports. We will also look over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as the user does within the application and we did the assumption that users that drives in a country with imperial system also have the client set to imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this needs to be addressed. Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.com (or here on OSM-talk) with feedback or questions about this component or the application in general. We do not want to create a lot of garbage reports that just ends up cluttering the database and never gets resolved, that's not beneficial for anyone. Best regards, -- Erik Mattsson Software Engineer Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden Phone: +4673-636 10 68 Mail: erik.matts...@appello.com Web: www.appello.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Sent from my Jolla ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 14:14 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote: Speed limits that are an odd multiple of 5 are common in the USA. For example, the most common speed limit on motorways within cities is 55 mph. 15 mph is a common speed limit near schools at the times of day when children are likely to be using the crosswalks. Speed limits that aren't an odd or even multiple of 5 are rare, but not unknown. They are usually on private roads. For example, the YMCA owns a large sports facility outside Nashville, TN. The posted speed limits on the private roads within the compound are 16 mph. I am aware that the USA has speed limits in multiples of 5 mph. I was suggesting that the app should use the GPS, or settings, to get some sensible locaiised values for speed limits values and mph/kph. There is also a 10 second timeout on the report, I think only on the driving mode, which will possibly encourage the user to just hit send. I have been experimenting a little more since my last post, the value initially presented to the user is the closest increment to the actual speed. Actually if used with care its not a bad feature, I would like this in osmand but then use my OSM account rather than post anonymously. Although the main point of the thread I do still believe. The note should include the name of the app and contact details of the admins for the app, that is only basic good manners and should have been a no brainer for the developers. Phil (trigpoint) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
I opened an issue about this a year ago and apparently it came up in an EWG meeting as well. But talk and issues don't write code. https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/385 Toby On Aug 16, 2014 8:10 PM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: Am 16.08.2014 08:28, schrieb Maarten Deen: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Think any app that creates notes should have a proper user with some information on the user's page and like wise an email address to contact. This way users could still create nodes anonymously but we would reach the person with power. cu colliar ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote: The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and unhelpful notes in most cases. I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when someone reports an error in the app. Thanks Andreas I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play. The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better. The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user. The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through a list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst driving in Europe either. Phil (trigpoint) /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén andreas.vi...@gmail.com wrote: Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033layers=N for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on this exact location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471 That leads me to believe that that position is the zero position of the app used to create these notes. It would be really great if the person who managed to figure out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer questions... Why is everything so cryptic? /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or beta-testing an app. I agree that both a user contact and the identify of the app are needed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Then there are what I expect are temporary limits for some reason being reported. Such as http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/219321#c438501 The permanent limit here is correctly posted as 70 mph. Phil (trigpoint) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Did the app have a standard position when the GPS doesn't work properly or is not active, considering all the notes in several different languages, that are constantly created in the same location in central Stockholm? The ones that are clustered around a residential area in a small village in Sweden are probably created by one user fooling around in his or her home, when I thought further about it. /Andreas On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote: The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and unhelpful notes in most cases. I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when someone reports an error in the app. Thanks Andreas I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play. The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better. The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user. The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through a list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst driving in Europe either. Phil (trigpoint) /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén andreas.vi...@gmail.com wrote: Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033layers=N for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on this exact location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471 That leads me to believe that that position is the zero position of the app used to create these notes. It would be really great if the person who managed to figure out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer questions... Why is everything so cryptic? /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or beta-testing an app. I agree that both a user contact and the identify of the app are needed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Speed limits even n4 On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote: The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and unhelpful notes in most cases. I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when someone reports an error in the app. Thanks Andreas I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play. The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better. The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user. The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through a list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst driving in Europe either. Phil (trigpoint) /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén andreas.vi...@gmail.com wrote: Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033layers=N for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on this exact location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471 That leads me to believe that that position is the zero position of the app used to create these notes. It would be really great if the person who managed to figure out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer questions... Why is everything so cryptic? /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or beta-testing an app. I agree that both a user contact and the identify of the app are needed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Speed limits that are an odd multiple of 5 are common in the USA. For example, the most common speed limit on motorways within cities is 55 mph. 15 mph is a common speed limit near schools at the times of day when children are likely to be using the crosswalks. Speed limits that aren't an odd or even multiple of 5 are rare, but not unknown. They are usually on private roads. For example, the YMCA owns a large sports facility outside Nashville, TN. The posted speed limits on the private roads within the compound are 16 mph. On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote: The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and unhelpful notes in most cases. I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when someone reports an error in the app. Thanks Andreas I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play. The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better. The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user. The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through a list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst driving in Europe either. Phil (trigpoint) /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén andreas.vi...@gmail.com wrote: Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033layers=N for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on this exact location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471 That leads me to believe that that position is the zero position of the app used to create these notes. It would be really great if the person who managed to figure out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer questions... Why is everything so cryptic? /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or beta-testing an app. I agree that both a user contact and the identify of the app are needed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Reminds me of what Mapdust failed at. On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 7:10 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or for surveyors in the field. I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment). So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk' notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field note. The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close all of them without doing a survey. Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea? Implementation of this should be easy. -- Matthijs On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
I've seen km/h speed limits in the US. There's even a sign standard for these, and the Federal Highway Administration is recommending the new signs over the existing MPH signs (tonnes and km/h are circled on the sign, obsolete units have no circle). On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-10 at 15:13 +0100, John Sturdy wrote: I wonder whether these incorrect speed limit notes might not be reporting that the speed limit on the map isn't what it is on the road, but someone objecting to what the speed limit on the road is, and making a token protest about it? Most I have seen are plain ridiculous. Apart from the obvious error of using kph in the UK, and USA? Many are 0 (impossible or 10 (really unlikely). The only valid speed I have found was telling me that the speed limit on the M25 is 70mph, which was of course already tagged. There is a lot of accidental misuse of notes, where they are used to tag meet here, the site and so on. These are things that should use the share button, but the misuse is understandable, the word note does not imply suggest improvement or highlight omission. A note in normal usage is something private and informal. It would be interesting to know where these speed limit notes are coming from, if an app is posting then it is only good manners to say who you are. Speed limits are an area in which we are lacking in many areas, but they are also something that needs careful surveying. I am certainly working on these where I can. But it is a slow process, notes highlighting a missing speed limit in a cul-de-sac are not likely to make any mapper change their mapping plan. Phil (trigpoint) On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:24 PM, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Have a look there: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486 If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add private notes/heavy duty work JB. Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit : I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or for surveyors in the field. I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment). So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk' notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field note. The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close all of them without doing a survey. Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea? Implementation of this should be easy. -- Matthijs On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk With low quality and no information about source this should be treated as a spam. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Like this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/220298 It says map error: general map error: error... On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk With low quality and no information about source this should be treated as a spam. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
I noticed that note was actually made by a logged in user so I tried asking where the notes were coming from and got the answer Wrong speed limit on a speed camera together with a sent from my iphone with http://midpoint.se/ and nothing else... I have no idea what midpoint is but it feels like I was talking to a software... /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Andreas Vilén andreas.vi...@gmail.com wrote: Like this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/220298 It says map error: general map error: error... On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk With low quality and no information about source this should be treated as a spam. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl mailto:md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or beta-testing an app. I agree that both a user contact and the identify of the app are needed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033layers=N for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on this exact location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471 That leads me to believe that that position is the zero position of the app used to create these notes. It would be really great if the person who managed to figure out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer questions... Why is everything so cryptic? /Andreas On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Maarten If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or beta-testing an app. I agree that both a user contact and the identify of the app are needed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Am 16.08.2014 08:28, schrieb Maarten Deen: On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote: This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from. Think any app that creates notes should have a proper user with some information on the user's page and like wise an email address to contact. This way users could still create nodes anonymously but we would reach the person with power. cu colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will probably stay in the database forever. If this continues, maybe anonymous notes can no longer be accepted and that would be sad. /Andreas On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 09:54 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote: On 10/08/14 21:16, Norbert Wenzel wrote: Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think I'm alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been closed by now by different users. Just to let people know, I have now managed to make contact with the authors of the app that is creating these notes and they are now reviewing the comments in this thread and working on improvements. What is the app called? Do tell. Phil (trigpoint) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. Are we still talking Incorrect speed limit? What clarification does that need? I used to get a lot of similar reports from Skobbler, so mapped all the local speed limits and then they stopped being reported as missing or wrong. Having said that you then need to monitor for changes (in my case I try and watch public notices in the local newspaper and add a note if I read about a planned change, so I or any other mapper can actually monitor for the signs changing). Anyway Incorrect speed limit is one that needs a survey, but not really clarification. Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi, A distinction between field notes and armchair IMHO goes too far. Instead a kind of field flag might help, which can be seen as this note has to be reviewed by someone with detailled on-the-ground knowledge or being present on the ground. On the other hand there's the problem of an increasing number of notes. I see two different problems here. 1) Too many notes I cannot solve: Motivation goes down, and I start to close notes just to get rid of them although they are neither solved nor correctly identified as being invalid. This is an individual problem for each (maintaining) mapper. I would like to see something like hide this node for me, perhaps with an optional ...until it is changed or commented by someone else. This would allow armchair mappers to clean up the notes as far as possible without being disturbed by irrelevant notes being processed already. 2) What is the purpose of notes? There are private notes of mappers for themself to fix problems later; often these aren't explained in detail as the mapper relies on his memory to understand it. Those might be solved by allowing private notes as mentioned by others. There are bug notes, where something is wrong in the map in contrast to missing notes, where something is missing. Both may be valuable, some for locals, some for armchair mappers, some for both, and others for nobody. The distinction between armchair and field is difficult. Of course there are Germans or HOT-people who armchair-map somewhere else in the world or something like that, but I don't think it would solve the issue. I think, although those don't call themself armchair-mappers, most of these issues arise where someone checks his own city, or the region around for bugs. Bugs where the mapper might go to in the field if necessary, if not now, then in the next weeks or months, becoming a field mapper by doing that. Moreover most armchair mappers (I hope) are field mappers in their local area. It would therefore require to decide about my own field mapping area versus the rest of the world to show or hide the one or the other set of nodes. To conclude: I think there's the chance for improvement of the notes system, but closing notes should be done with care, and only where it is clear that the note is either solved or unsolvable/wrong. regards Peter Am 10.08.2014 um 14:10 schrieb Matthijs Melissen: I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or for surveyors in the field. I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment). So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk' notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field note. The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close all of them without doing a survey. Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea? Implementation of this should be easy. -- Matthijs On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto:
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 10/08/14 21:16, Norbert Wenzel wrote: Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think I'm alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been closed by now by different users. Just to let people know, I have now managed to make contact with the authors of the app that is creating these notes and they are now reviewing the comments in this thread and working on improvements. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Il giorno 11/ago/2014, alle ore 10:29, Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com ha scritto: Anyway Incorrect speed limit is one that needs a survey, but not really clarification. +1, I also don't think this can be reported automatically (a preconfigured text is not something I'd call automatically reporting. If these had been entered by comparison with another source this would obviously be different... Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 08/11/2014 10:29 AM, Ed Loach wrote: Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. Are we still talking Incorrect speed limit? What clarification does that need? [...] The start and end of the speed limit are not given. That's what I would usually ask. And there are speed limits reported that I just don't believe, eg. the famous 0km/h or 105km/h. Or speed limits in areas with variable speed limits already tagged in OSM. An application that uses OSM data and (semi)automatically reports issues should imo filter obvious errors and *at least give a way for OSM to get in touch with the application team* to tell them about problems in their application/version of the OSM data. Anyway Incorrect speed limit is one that needs a survey, but not really clarification. You could solve every problem in OSM by survey, but what's the point of notes saying survey needed? A lot of messages posted with the same text and known to be of dubious quality are hiding those messages that are posted by a user on the osm.org website. Usually users who post notes on the osm.org check back if the map has changed so I'd like to fix these first. I think this all boils down to the need for different categories of notes. Those posted by single users that spot an error on the map and who care about that report enough to possibly check back and give further details and those of datausers that have their own crowd (or tool/validator) that reports errors in the datausers version of OSM data and where the user might not even know he has put a note on the osm.org website, so no answer or feedback can be expected (and the report might be bogus since the error might only be in the datausers data/app). Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Il giorno 11/ago/2014, alle ore 12:25, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: Anyway Incorrect speed limit is one that needs a survey, but not really clarification. You could solve every problem in OSM by survey, but what's the point of notes saying survey needed? It is like a fix me, it reports a wrong speed limit which are otherwise hard to spot A lot of messages posted with the same text and known to be of dubious quality Have there been cases where at the time the note was created the speed limit in osm was actually correct? Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 12:38 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Have there been cases where at the time the note was created the speed limit in osm was actually correct? Yes, this one which I closed yesterday, http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/214534 Only to now spot this one appearing. http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/216068 The speed limit was added to this stretch of M25 3 years ago. Most I have seen have been clearly wrong, 0 kph and 10kph is not a valid speed limit. These notes do seem numerous and are creating a lot of noise making other valid notes hard to spot. Phil (trigpoint) Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 09:54 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote: On 10/08/14 21:16, Norbert Wenzel wrote: Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think I'm alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been closed by now by different users. Just to let people know, I have now managed to make contact with the authors of the app that is creating these notes and they are now reviewing the comments in this thread and working on improvements. What is the app called? Do tell. Phil (trigpoint) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 08/11/2014 12:38 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Il giorno 11/ago/2014, alle ore 12:25, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: A lot of messages posted with the same text and known to be of dubious quality Have there been cases where at the time the note was created the speed limit in osm was actually correct? Yes there have even been cases where the static speed limit (good old metal sign) has been correctly tagged in OSM and still reported. And the other cases have been described in the previous mail. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or for surveyors in the field. I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment). So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk' notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field note. The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close all of them without doing a survey. Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea? Implementation of this should be easy. -- Matthijs On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Have a look there: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486 If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add private notes/heavy duty work JB. Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit : I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or for surveyors in the field. I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment). So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk' notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field note. The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close all of them without doing a survey. Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea? Implementation of this should be easy. -- Matthijs On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
I wonder whether these incorrect speed limit notes might not be reporting that the speed limit on the map isn't what it is on the road, but someone objecting to what the speed limit on the road is, and making a token protest about it? On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:24 PM, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Have a look there: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486 If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add private notes/heavy duty work JB. Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit : I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or for surveyors in the field. I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment). So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk' notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field note. The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close all of them without doing a survey. Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea? Implementation of this should be easy. -- Matthijs On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 10/08/2014 11:50, JB wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? Yes, I do this all the time, in the sense that if I'm going to be mapping somewhere I'll extract notes for that area and stick them on the Garmin, and if I'm near one I'll go and have a look and see if I can resolve it, or perhaps even just add a bit more information to it. How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? No, but that's to do with never having extracted OSB bugs from the dump and converted to something that a Garmin can understand, rather than what's in there being old and out of date (though I'd agree with you that in OSB's case it was). Some notes will need an on-the-ground survey, and some of those notes will be in places where there currently aren't active on-the-ground mappers. Surely the solution here is not to close the notes but to try and engage more new local mappers who can then supply the missing information? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On Sun, 2014-08-10 at 15:13 +0100, John Sturdy wrote: I wonder whether these incorrect speed limit notes might not be reporting that the speed limit on the map isn't what it is on the road, but someone objecting to what the speed limit on the road is, and making a token protest about it? Most I have seen are plain ridiculous. Apart from the obvious error of using kph in the UK, and USA? Many are 0 (impossible or 10 (really unlikely). The only valid speed I have found was telling me that the speed limit on the M25 is 70mph, which was of course already tagged. There is a lot of accidental misuse of notes, where they are used to tag meet here, the site and so on. These are things that should use the share button, but the misuse is understandable, the word note does not imply suggest improvement or highlight omission. A note in normal usage is something private and informal. It would be interesting to know where these speed limit notes are coming from, if an app is posting then it is only good manners to say who you are. Speed limits are an area in which we are lacking in many areas, but they are also something that needs careful surveying. I am certainly working on these where I can. But it is a slow process, notes highlighting a missing speed limit in a cul-de-sac are not likely to make any mapper change their mapping plan. Phil (trigpoint) On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:24 PM, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Have a look there: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486 If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add private notes/heavy duty work JB. Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit : I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or for surveyors in the field. I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment). So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk' notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field note. The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close all of them without doing a survey. Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea? Implementation of this should be easy. -- Matthijs On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hello, I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many of those saying hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life? If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why OSB was a mess in the end. I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day. So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued notes every week saying this speed limit may be wrong, some of them added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB to me. JB. Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 08/10/2014 09:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel norbert.wenzel.li...@gmail.com ha scritto: just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think I'm alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been closed by now by different users. Just for clarification, only these special, automatically posted notes are closed. The alternative to closing in my mind would be to post some disclaimer text, that points out the poor quality of the tool that creates these issues so other editors are warned, even if they don't know about this discussion here. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 07/29/2014 01:06 AM, Tom Hughes wrote: On 28/07/14 23:38, Michał Brzozowski wrote: Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form Incorrect speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h. Here's a search query: http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is Those notes do all appear to be coming from one source - I have sent them an email to try and make contact with somebody so we can discuss how they can improve things. Did you get any responses so far? I'm just seeing these notes along a motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really annoying to close all these automatically generated notes. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 07/29/2014 01:43 AM, John Packer wrote: I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems... Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say where exactly they would apply to. Are these notes only reporting speed limits or are there other traffic related notes too? I've seen some No x turn here notes recently (in German) at places far from the next crossing. I chose to close these since there was no way of guessing what the anonymous reporter wanted to say. So your point about the note placement made me think if these notes also were reports from some third party software, possibly the same. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
In French, I understand the message as « the speed limit in OSM is 0/5/15/90 km, that is incorrect », but the speed limit indicated does not match that of any road in OSM close to the point. Do you understand the english messages the same way? Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. JB. Le 29/07/2014 08:29, Norbert Wenzel a écrit : On 07/29/2014 01:43 AM, John Packer wrote: I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems... Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say where exactly they would apply to. Are these notes only reporting speed limits or are there other traffic related notes too? I've seen some No x turn here notes recently (in German) at places far from the next crossing. I chose to close these since there was no way of guessing what the anonymous reporter wanted to say. So your point about the note placement made me think if these notes also were reports from some third party software, possibly the same. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Am 29/lug/2014 um 09:32 schrieb JB jb...@mailoo.org: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. +1, at best this can be a hint to resurvey (if positional accuracy is sufficient to know where the problem is), generally will be almost useless (if the note gets created automatically and not positioned manually) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit starts and ends? -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 29/07/14 07:29, Norbert Wenzel wrote: On 07/29/2014 01:43 AM, John Packer wrote: I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems... Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say where exactly they would apply to. Are these notes only reporting speed limits or are there other traffic related notes too? I've seen some No x turn here notes recently (in German) at places far from the next crossing. I chose to close these since there was no way of guessing what the anonymous reporter wanted to say. I think some of them do say other things, yes. Still waiting for a reply from the people I emailed last night. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened, closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France, I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or « resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener, when prompted by a potential corrector. So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing. JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much. Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit : On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit starts and ends? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Sorry, there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing? Can you give me a link? And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data), or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default). So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit errors in osm obsolete. IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something missing or wrong, please check that on the ground. regards Peter Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB: I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened, closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France, I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or « resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener, when prompted by a potential corrector. So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing. JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much. Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit : On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit starts and ends? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi Peter, The following ITO Map shows missing maxspeed tags where there isn’t any purple (mph maxspeed) or dark green (km/h maxspeed) colour: http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=-0.08316lat=51.51851zoom=14open_sidebar=map_keyfullscreen=true If you want to see the current speed limits see: http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-0.08316lat=51.51851zoom=14open_sidebar=map_keyfullscreen=true Clicking the maps gives more info in the sidebar. Shaun Disclaimer: Employee of ITO World who produce the maps above. On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:49, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Sorry, there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing? Can you give me a link? And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data), or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default). So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit errors in osm obsolete. IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something missing or wrong, please check that on the ground. regards Peter Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB: I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened, closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France, I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or « resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener, when prompted by a potential corrector. So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing. JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much. Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit : On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit starts and ends? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hello, Not sure it is safe to go on such a discussion that may turn sour soon only because of different views on how notes should be used… Lets say I try to keep the db as clean as possible without getting too much angryness here in France, but am also wondering on how the situation will look like, say, in one year in some countries. Lets also state that I do not think OSB was a « great » database at the end of its existence (yes, I closed many many bugs there when it was shut down). For QA tools, I consider these as QA, that also allow to spot where speed limits are missing: http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=2.35202lat=48.82157zoom=10 http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=2.34994lat=48.82676zoom=10 and some (but only a few) analyses from osmose: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Osmose/erreurs I do not expect an answer, let's cool down, JB. Le 29/07/2014 12:49, Peter Wendorff a écrit : Sorry, there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing? Can you give me a link? And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data), or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default). So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit errors in osm obsolete. IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something missing or wrong, please check that on the ground. regards Peter Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB: I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened, closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France, I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or « resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener, when prompted by a potential corrector. So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing. JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much. Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit : On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit starts and ends? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi Shaun, if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so show any missing maxspeed in Germany, so there might be something like that applied). If maxspeed is and should be applied on any street, this works, but only until speed limits change. If you imply the default according to highway class and location, it fails as many roads do follow these defaults and cannot be counted as missing, nor is it possible to decide where else a maxspeed is missing then. In any case reporting missing maxspeeds will work only until the speed limit is changed on the ground as it is even more difficult (if possible) to detect where there are errors (!) in existing speed limits. regards Peter Am 29.07.2014 um 13:10 schrieb Shaun McDonald: Hi Peter, The following ITO Map shows missing maxspeed tags where there isn’t any purple (mph maxspeed) or dark green (km/h maxspeed) colour: http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=-0.08316lat=51.51851zoom=14open_sidebar=map_keyfullscreen=true If you want to see the current speed limits see: http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-0.08316lat=51.51851zoom=14open_sidebar=map_keyfullscreen=true Clicking the maps gives more info in the sidebar. Shaun Disclaimer: Employee of ITO World who produce the maps above. On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:49, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Sorry, there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing? Can you give me a link? And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data), or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default). So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit errors in osm obsolete. IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something missing or wrong, please check that on the ground. regards Peter Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB: I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened, closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France, I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or « resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener, when prompted by a potential corrector. So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing. JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much. Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit : On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit starts and ends? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
2014-07-29 13:39 GMT+02:00 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: Hi Shaun, if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so show any missing maxspeed in Germany, so there might be something like that applied). There is consensus to tag roads with implied maxspeed with tags like maxspeed=50 + source:maxspeed=de:urban. So all roads should have maxspeed tags. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 29 Jul 2014, at 13:07, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-07-29 13:39 GMT+02:00 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: Hi Shaun, if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so show any missing maxspeed in Germany, so there might be something like that applied). There is consensus to tag roads with implied maxspeed with tags like maxspeed=50 + source:maxspeed=de:urban. So all roads should have maxspeed tags. In Britain we’ve moved to using the maxspeed:type tag instead of source:maxspeed, thus leaving source:maxspeed for how you found out the maxspeed:type. e.g. was it a sign, survey, or local knowledge? Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Hi Peter, Unfortunately we don’t take account of any country defaults due to the complexities involved. I’m sure that someone will come up with a tool to highlight the problems if a national speed limit does change, especially if the maxspeed:type is used appropriately. Shaun On 29 Jul 2014, at 12:39, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Hi Shaun, if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so show any missing maxspeed in Germany, so there might be something like that applied). If maxspeed is and should be applied on any street, this works, but only until speed limits change. If you imply the default according to highway class and location, it fails as many roads do follow these defaults and cannot be counted as missing, nor is it possible to decide where else a maxspeed is missing then. In any case reporting missing maxspeeds will work only until the speed limit is changed on the ground as it is even more difficult (if possible) to detect where there are errors (!) in existing speed limits. regards Peter Am 29.07.2014 um 13:10 schrieb Shaun McDonald: Hi Peter, The following ITO Map shows missing maxspeed tags where there isn’t any purple (mph maxspeed) or dark green (km/h maxspeed) colour: http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=-0.08316lat=51.51851zoom=14open_sidebar=map_keyfullscreen=true If you want to see the current speed limits see: http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-0.08316lat=51.51851zoom=14open_sidebar=map_keyfullscreen=true Clicking the maps gives more info in the sidebar. Shaun Disclaimer: Employee of ITO World who produce the maps above. On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:49, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Sorry, there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing? Can you give me a link? And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data), or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default). So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit errors in osm obsolete. IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something missing or wrong, please check that on the ground. regards Peter Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB: I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened, closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France, I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or « resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener, when prompted by a potential corrector. So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing. JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much. Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit : On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote: Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is quite useless. Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit starts and ends? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Am 29/lug/2014 um 13:39 schrieb Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: as it is even more difficult (if possible) to detect where there are errors (!) in existing speed limits. personally I also map sign positions (nodes aside the road), because it really helps for verifying what is mapped on the road, how long a speed limit is valid etc. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form Incorrect speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h. Here's a search query: http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app which allows users to report back errors. But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software? As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data. I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness' sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-) Cheers, Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
On 28/07/14 23:38, Michał Brzozowski wrote: Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form Incorrect speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h. Here's a search query: http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app which allows users to report back errors. But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software? As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data. I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness' sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-) Those notes do all appear to be coming from one source - I have sent them an email to try and make contact with somebody so we can discuss how they can improve things. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
Interesting. The coverage of these notes is almost global. I don't see any in South America or Australia but otherwise there are some on each continent. I also see some reported speed limits in the U.S. in km/h which is most likely not correct. Once upon a time I suggested adding a kind of created_by type of field to notes that would eventually be required for 3rd party applications posting anonymous notes. But it seems no code has magically appeared to do this yet. Toby On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form Incorrect speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h. Here's a search query: http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app which allows users to report back errors. But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software? As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data. I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness' sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-) Cheers, Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
They also appear in French: Limitation de vitesse inappropriée. La limitation de vitesse signalée est X km/h And in Portugese: Limite de velocidade incorreto. O limite de velocidade informado é X km/h also Finnish, Czech, Swedish, Italian... Oh, you can just view all of them by searching km/h :) http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=km/h They seem to translate these into the country's language and fall back to English in case of unavailable translation. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?
I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems... Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say where exactly they would apply to. There's been at least some 60 of those in portuguese so far. I saw a similar note in Spanish too, so they are probably even more widespread... Besides the report of speed limit, I also saw some Can't turn left. note[1], which are likely to be from the same origin. Agree with all Michał said. [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/205281 Em 28/07/2014 20:16, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com escreveu: Interesting. The coverage of these notes is almost global. I don't see any in South America or Australia but otherwise there are some on each continent. I also see some reported speed limits in the U.S. in km/h which is most likely not correct. Once upon a time I suggested adding a kind of created_by type of field to notes that would eventually be required for 3rd party applications posting anonymous notes. But it seems no code has magically appeared to do this yet. Toby On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form Incorrect speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h. Here's a search query: http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app which allows users to report back errors. But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software? As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data. I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness' sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-) Cheers, Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
