Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 23, 2019, 10:47 AM by i...@zverev.info:

> Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> Please note that by using "vandalism" you claim that this action was 
>> malicious.
>> Unless you have really, really good reason to claim that whoever did it was 
>> deliberately
>> doing this to damage OSM the please avoid such claims.
>>
> Well, if you don’t intend your action as malicious, that doesn’t always mean 
> it isn’t.
>
"malicious" is about what is intended, not about results.
It is not covering unintentional negative effects.

See https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/malicious 

"having or showing a desire to cause harm to someone : 
given to, marked by, or arising from malice"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/malicious 

"Of, pertaining to, or as a result of malice or spite"
:spiteful and deliberately harmful"

https://www.google.com/search?q=malicious 

"characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm."
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Simon Poole]

See https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/disingenuous

Am 22.04.2019 um 20:40 schrieb mmd:
> Am 22.04.19 um 12:37 schrieb Simon Poole:
>> The last functional addition to the editing API was just over a year
>> ago, in March 2018.
>>
>> Implying for rhetorical purposes that "nothing has changed" is rather
>> disingenuous.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 22.04.2019 um 11:59 schrieb Ilya Zverev:
>>> This attitude: “to do well we would need people responsible and there isn’t 
>>> any; you can do your thing without OSM infrastructure so why bother; nobody 
>>> died, stop your hype and comply” — is why we’re still with API 0.6 ten 
>>> years after it was introduced.
>>>
> If you read his most recent blog post on
> http://shtosm.ru/all/desyat-let-api/, Ilya isn't exactly suggesting that
> nothing has changed since API 0.6 was introduced.
>
> I'm quoting the English translation below:
>
> "Is it possible to somehow change small things?
>
> The modern API 0.6 is noticeably different from what we got ten years
> ago. Around 2012, additional functions began to be attached to it that
> did not affect the data model. In May 2012, applications were able to
> find out what rights they have. In August, hiding versions of objects
> was added to the API for relicensing. In April 2013 , notes appeared .
> In November 2014 , comments were added to the editing packages . The
> last time the protocol was improved six months ago, when they improved
> the search for notes through / notes / search.
> "
>
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Simon Poole]

Am 22.04.2019 um 18:46 schrieb Dave F via talk:
> Was this new/improvement additions or bug/maintenance fix?

As said, it was an addition.

Simon

>
> DaveF
>
> On 22/04/2019 11:37, Simon Poole wrote:
>> The last functional addition to the editing API was just over a year
>> ago, in March 2018.
>>
>> Implying for rhetorical purposes that "nothing has changed" is rather
>> disingenuous.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 22.04.2019 um 11:59 schrieb Ilya Zverev:
>>> This attitude: “to do well we would need people responsible and there isn’t 
>>> any; you can do your thing without OSM infrastructure so why bother; nobody 
>>> died, stop your hype and comply” — is why we’re still with API 0.6 ten 
>>> years after it was introduced.
>>>
>>> Ilya
>>>
 On 22 Apr 2019, at 09:35, Jochen Topf  wrote:

 On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:03:40AM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> In my research of API 0.6 (which turned ten years old yesterday) I've
> stumbled on this page:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6/Crowd_sourced_Testing
>
> It was deleted 7 years ago. And this is a disaster. The page was an
> important milestone in our history: authors, dates, items on it could 
> bring
> some more information on how our current API was rolled out. Nothing is
> left.
 It was deleted an yet you have found it. So not a huge desaster after
 all.

> Please, could we have a deletion policy in our wiki that clearly states 
> "No
> obsolete pages here", forbidding deletion of anything except spam or
> otherwise harmful pages? Deleting our history is plain vandalism, no 
> better
> than physically destroying pieces of human history displayed in museums.
 Isn't that a bit of hype here...

> It's not like we're pressed for disk space there.
 No, we aren't. But we are pressed for time and human attention. Of we
 had curators who keep important things organized and findable we could
 keep things forever. But as it is, all the obsolete crap keeps us from
 finding and working with what we need now.

> Thank internet gods for the Internet Archive,
 Not the gods but some good people who had a good idea. Let them do their
 job and keep the history and lets do our job and keep the momentum in
 the project instead of spending our time looking back.

 Jochen
 -- 
 Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  
 +49-351-31778688
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Ilya Zverev]

Frederik, thanks for expressing your point of view. I always admire your posts 
and occasionally translate them for the Russian audience. I know I cannot 
change your (or anybody’s) view, but I hope in time I can explain you mine.

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I'm tired of this gatekeeper nonsense. Your "OSM must grow up" talk at
> SOTM in Aizu-Wakamatsu was full of examples where you personally would
> like OSM to change direction (or perhaps, start moving in a direction of
> your choice), and others didn't, and you framed all this as "stagnation"
> like you're doing here, again.
No, I was talking about the imminent change that is already happening, whether 
you want it or not. The community becomes more mature — with different speed in 
different countries, but still. OSM is a map for businesses now, and with your 
anti-commerce rhetoric you actually helped make that change.
> Someone has made a decision to do something (delete a wiki page), you
> don't like it, and somehow you manage to accuse the spirit that led to
> the decision of being responsible for stagnation.
No, I was responding particularly to a reply that implied that if I found a 
convoluted way to dig into the history and was lucky enough to find an archived 
page on some third-party site, that means everything is great and we don’t need 
to do anything, let alone start a “hype” on mailing lists.
> In the next minute, when you suggest that something should be introduced
> and someone else says "not so fast, let's think of the negative effects
> first" you'll accuse them of being responsible for stagnation.
Because time and time again, in OSM and in the real world in Russia I see that 
phrase as a means to stop ideas and any action. We need to think more about 
positive effects. OpenStreetMap is sturdy enough — thanks to your work as well 
— so we can try doing wrong actions and burn money on silly things. Without 
mistakes there is no progress — and we’ve built an impressive and reliable 
system of preventing any mistakes.
> It's just not credible any more, coming from you. All those evil gate
> keepers you're seeing everywhere, holding OSM back from realising its
> full potential, the old guard of secret power brokers that stands in the
> way of greatness, blah blah blah. It's just cheap rhetorics to give your
> personal vision more weight.
Yeah, okay. Not like we have people on the Board who have served for 7+ years 
with OSM 14 years old. Not like we don’t have any server admins that have 
worked on the project less than 12 years ago and any contingency plan for when 
they get tired. I see that everything in OpenStreetMap, from code to tagging to 
using the data is governed not by policies, but by a will of a few people — and 
prove me wrong. I keep the same rhetorics for years, because nothing has 
changed in years.
> Make your statement, say what you like or dislike, just like everyone
> else, without resorting to "SEE, THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO PROGRESS"
> at every opportunity.
What do you like and dislike in the current state of OpenStreetMap?

Ilya
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Ilya Zverev]

Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

> Please note that by using "vandalism" you claim that this action was 
> malicious.
> Unless you have really, really good reason to claim that whoever did it was 
> deliberately
> doing this to damage OSM the please avoid such claims.
Well, if you don’t intend your action as malicious, that doesn’t always mean it 
isn’t.

I am sorry for using strong words, but please understand me. I was digging way 
back into OpenStreetMap project history to get a complete picture of some 
event. And then I find out some pages removed completely — with no way for me 
to restore them using website functionality. Yes, there is a Wayback Machine, 
but you should not have to use it on a wiki, which is made to store the entire 
edit history. This disappearance of historic pages, along with active 
wiki-editors that are happy to place the {{d}} template on any page they don’t 
like (I’ve seen these and removed some of the templates), prompted me to write 
a post here.

I’d like you to share the view that only only the recent tagging and recent 
data in OSM are important, but the history is of value as well.

Ilya
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 21, 2019, 11:03 PM by i...@zverev.info:

> Please, could we have a deletion policy in our wiki that clearly states "No 
> obsolete pages here", forbidding deletion of anything except spam or 
> otherwise harmful pages? Deleting our history is plain vandalism
>
Please note that by using "vandalism" you claim that this action was malicious.
Unless you have really, really good reason to claim that whoever did it was 
deliberately
doing this to damage OSM the please avoid such claims.

>
> , no better than physically destroying pieces of human history displayed in 
> museums.
>
And that is frankly a bizarre claim. For start a typical piece displayed in 
museum is not
possible to be unbroken with a single click and is worth far more 
than an outdated wiki page.

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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[mmd]

Am 22.04.19 um 12:37 schrieb Simon Poole:
> The last functional addition to the editing API was just over a year
> ago, in March 2018.
> 
> Implying for rhetorical purposes that "nothing has changed" is rather
> disingenuous.
> 
> Simon
> 
> Am 22.04.2019 um 11:59 schrieb Ilya Zverev:
>> This attitude: “to do well we would need people responsible and there isn’t 
>> any; you can do your thing without OSM infrastructure so why bother; nobody 
>> died, stop your hype and comply” — is why we’re still with API 0.6 ten years 
>> after it was introduced.
>>

If you read his most recent blog post on
http://shtosm.ru/all/desyat-let-api/, Ilya isn't exactly suggesting that
nothing has changed since API 0.6 was introduced.

I'm quoting the English translation below:

"Is it possible to somehow change small things?

The modern API 0.6 is noticeably different from what we got ten years
ago. Around 2012, additional functions began to be attached to it that
did not affect the data model. In May 2012, applications were able to
find out what rights they have. In August, hiding versions of objects
was added to the API for relicensing. In April 2013 , notes appeared .
In November 2014 , comments were added to the editing packages . The
last time the protocol was improved six months ago, when they improved
the search for notes through / notes / search.
"


-- 





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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 4/22/19 11:59, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> This attitude: “to do well we would need people responsible and there isn’t 
> any; you can do your thing without OSM infrastructure so why bother; nobody 
> died, stop your hype and comply” — is why we’re still with API 0.6 ten years 
> after it was introduced.

I'm tired of this gatekeeper nonsense. Your "OSM must grow up" talk at
SOTM in Aizu-Wakamatsu was full of examples where you personally would
like OSM to change direction (or perhaps, start moving in a direction of
your choice), and others didn't, and you framed all this as "stagnation"
like you're doing here, again.

Someone has made a decision to do something (delete a wiki page), you
don't like it, and somehow you manage to accuse the spirit that led to
the decision of being responsible for stagnation.

In the next minute, when you suggest that something should be introduced
and someone else says "not so fast, let's think of the negative effects
first" you'll accuse them of being responsible for stagnation.

It's just not credible any more, coming from you. All those evil gate
keepers you're seeing everywhere, holding OSM back from realising its
full potential, the old guard of secret power brokers that stands in the
way of greatness, blah blah blah. It's just cheap rhetorics to give your
personal vision more weight.

Make your statement, say what you like or dislike, just like everyone
else, without resorting to "SEE, THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO PROGRESS"
at every opportunity.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Dave F via talk]

Was this new/improvement additions or bug/maintenance fix?

DaveF

On 22/04/2019 11:37, Simon Poole wrote:

The last functional addition to the editing API was just over a year
ago, in March 2018.

Implying for rhetorical purposes that "nothing has changed" is rather
disingenuous.

Simon

Am 22.04.2019 um 11:59 schrieb Ilya Zverev:

This attitude: “to do well we would need people responsible and there isn’t 
any; you can do your thing without OSM infrastructure so why bother; nobody 
died, stop your hype and comply” — is why we’re still with API 0.6 ten years 
after it was introduced.

Ilya


On 22 Apr 2019, at 09:35, Jochen Topf  wrote:

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:03:40AM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:

In my research of API 0.6 (which turned ten years old yesterday) I've
stumbled on this page:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6/Crowd_sourced_Testing

It was deleted 7 years ago. And this is a disaster. The page was an
important milestone in our history: authors, dates, items on it could bring
some more information on how our current API was rolled out. Nothing is
left.

It was deleted an yet you have found it. So not a huge desaster after
all.


Please, could we have a deletion policy in our wiki that clearly states "No
obsolete pages here", forbidding deletion of anything except spam or
otherwise harmful pages? Deleting our history is plain vandalism, no better
than physically destroying pieces of human history displayed in museums.

Isn't that a bit of hype here...


It's not like we're pressed for disk space there.

No, we aren't. But we are pressed for time and human attention. Of we
had curators who keep important things organized and findable we could
keep things forever. But as it is, all the obsolete crap keeps us from
finding and working with what we need now.


Thank internet gods for the Internet Archive,

Not the gods but some good people who had a good idea. Let them do their
job and keep the history and lets do our job and keep the momentum in
the project instead of spending our time looking back.

Jochen
--
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Yuri Astrakhan]

If the whole issue is optimizing search results, lets just create an
"Archive" namespace that is not included in search by default.  Moving to
archive is different from deleting because only admins can see deleted
content.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 4:11 AM Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 22/04/2019 11:45, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> > It’s history.
> Ilya ... it's the same problem we have with with a lot of the historic
> material. Personally I'd prefer to see the history accessible in some
> way, be it the history of the development of a area of mapping data, or
> the history of how we got to a particular style of recording that data.
> The data is in reality not totally lost, all that is missing is some
> general consensus on making it visible when appropriate.
>
> There has been a request for 'namespaces' in the wiki to help manage
> such things as the historic discussions on how tags have evolved and why
> some have been rejected. I'm not sure that it is the appropriate way to
> manage it, but an historic time line view of wiki pages is something
> that would not require 'manual management' and with a switch to display
> or not deleted pages would fill the gap? People investigating a
> particular tagging development could then see the past history of
> related pages.
>
> Doing the same with the map data is somewhat more difficult, but I still
> think it's a development that would replace the need to marry OSM with
> OHM for material that is substantially linked to current live data?
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Lester Caine]

On 22/04/2019 11:45, Ilya Zverev wrote:

It’s history.
Ilya ... it's the same problem we have with with a lot of the historic 
material. Personally I'd prefer to see the history accessible in some 
way, be it the history of the development of a area of mapping data, or 
the history of how we got to a particular style of recording that data. 
The data is in reality not totally lost, all that is missing is some 
general consensus on making it visible when appropriate.


There has been a request for 'namespaces' in the wiki to help manage 
such things as the historic discussions on how tags have evolved and why 
some have been rejected. I'm not sure that it is the appropriate way to 
manage it, but an historic time line view of wiki pages is something 
that would not require 'manual management' and with a switch to display 
or not deleted pages would fill the gap? People investigating a 
particular tagging development could then see the past history of 
related pages.


Doing the same with the map data is somewhat more difficult, but I still 
think it's a development that would replace the need to marry OSM with 
OHM for material that is substantially linked to current live data?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Ilya Zverev]

It’s history.

Why do we keep buildings and roads in the OSM database, that were demolished 
years ago? They are still there, versions 1 and 2, deleted by an active mapper. 
Why do we keep mailing lists archives from 2004? To argue with points made by 
people that left the project a decade ago?

You haven’t even looked at the archived version of that page. The latest 
revision clearly shows that the testing has ended. That is more than enough: no 
need to delete it so that nobody except a wiki admin could read it.

Ilya

> On 22 Apr 2019, at 13:29, Ed Loach  wrote:
> 
> Of course, being a wiki, it isn't actually deleted, just marked as deleted. 
> But looking at it now I can't see why we'd still want it in the wiki, asking 
> people to use possibly no longer existent api end points to test software 
> that long since has been tested.
> 
> Ed
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Simon Poole]

The last functional addition to the editing API was just over a year
ago, in March 2018.

Implying for rhetorical purposes that "nothing has changed" is rather
disingenuous.

Simon

Am 22.04.2019 um 11:59 schrieb Ilya Zverev:
> This attitude: “to do well we would need people responsible and there isn’t 
> any; you can do your thing without OSM infrastructure so why bother; nobody 
> died, stop your hype and comply” — is why we’re still with API 0.6 ten years 
> after it was introduced.
>
> Ilya
>
>> On 22 Apr 2019, at 09:35, Jochen Topf  wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:03:40AM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>>> In my research of API 0.6 (which turned ten years old yesterday) I've
>>> stumbled on this page:
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6/Crowd_sourced_Testing
>>>
>>> It was deleted 7 years ago. And this is a disaster. The page was an
>>> important milestone in our history: authors, dates, items on it could bring
>>> some more information on how our current API was rolled out. Nothing is
>>> left.
>> It was deleted an yet you have found it. So not a huge desaster after
>> all.
>>
>>> Please, could we have a deletion policy in our wiki that clearly states "No
>>> obsolete pages here", forbidding deletion of anything except spam or
>>> otherwise harmful pages? Deleting our history is plain vandalism, no better
>>> than physically destroying pieces of human history displayed in museums.
>> Isn't that a bit of hype here...
>>
>>> It's not like we're pressed for disk space there.
>> No, we aren't. But we are pressed for time and human attention. Of we
>> had curators who keep important things organized and findable we could
>> keep things forever. But as it is, all the obsolete crap keeps us from
>> finding and working with what we need now.
>>
>>> Thank internet gods for the Internet Archive,
>> Not the gods but some good people who had a good idea. Let them do their
>> job and keep the history and lets do our job and keep the momentum in
>> the project instead of spending our time looking back.
>>
>> Jochen
>> -- 
>> Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Ed Loach]

Of course, being a wiki, it isn't actually deleted, just marked as deleted. But 
looking at it now I can't see why we'd still want it in the wiki, asking people 
to use possibly no longer existent api end points to test software that long 
since has been tested.

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Ilya Zverev]

This attitude: “to do well we would need people responsible and there isn’t 
any; you can do your thing without OSM infrastructure so why bother; nobody 
died, stop your hype and comply” — is why we’re still with API 0.6 ten years 
after it was introduced.

Ilya

> On 22 Apr 2019, at 09:35, Jochen Topf  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:03:40AM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>> In my research of API 0.6 (which turned ten years old yesterday) I've
>> stumbled on this page:
>> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6/Crowd_sourced_Testing
>> 
>> It was deleted 7 years ago. And this is a disaster. The page was an
>> important milestone in our history: authors, dates, items on it could bring
>> some more information on how our current API was rolled out. Nothing is
>> left.
> 
> It was deleted an yet you have found it. So not a huge desaster after
> all.
> 
>> Please, could we have a deletion policy in our wiki that clearly states "No
>> obsolete pages here", forbidding deletion of anything except spam or
>> otherwise harmful pages? Deleting our history is plain vandalism, no better
>> than physically destroying pieces of human history displayed in museums.
> 
> Isn't that a bit of hype here...
> 
>> It's not like we're pressed for disk space there.
> 
> No, we aren't. But we are pressed for time and human attention. Of we
> had curators who keep important things organized and findable we could
> keep things forever. But as it is, all the obsolete crap keeps us from
> finding and working with what we need now.
> 
>> Thank internet gods for the Internet Archive,
> 
> Not the gods but some good people who had a good idea. Let them do their
> job and keep the history and lets do our job and keep the momentum in
> the project instead of spending our time looking back.
> 
> Jochen
> -- 
> Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688


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Re: [OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Jochen Topf]

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:03:40AM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> In my research of API 0.6 (which turned ten years old yesterday) I've
> stumbled on this page:
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6/Crowd_sourced_Testing
> 
> It was deleted 7 years ago. And this is a disaster. The page was an
> important milestone in our history: authors, dates, items on it could bring
> some more information on how our current API was rolled out. Nothing is
> left.

It was deleted an yet you have found it. So not a huge desaster after
all.

> Please, could we have a deletion policy in our wiki that clearly states "No
> obsolete pages here", forbidding deletion of anything except spam or
> otherwise harmful pages? Deleting our history is plain vandalism, no better
> than physically destroying pieces of human history displayed in museums.

Isn't that a bit of hype here...

> It's not like we're pressed for disk space there.

No, we aren't. But we are pressed for time and human attention. Of we
had curators who keep important things organized and findable we could
keep things forever. But as it is, all the obsolete crap keeps us from
finding and working with what we need now.

> Thank internet gods for the Internet Archive,

Not the gods but some good people who had a good idea. Let them do their
job and keep the history and lets do our job and keep the momentum in
the project instead of spending our time looking back.

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688

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[OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi,

In my research of API 0.6 (which turned ten years old yesterday) I've 
stumbled on this page:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6/Crowd_sourced_Testing

It was deleted 7 years ago. And this is a disaster. The page was an 
important milestone in our history: authors, dates, items on it could 
bring some more information on how our current API was rolled out. 
Nothing is left.


Please, could we have a deletion policy in our wiki that clearly states 
"No obsolete pages here", forbidding deletion of anything except spam or 
otherwise harmful pages? Deleting our history is plain vandalism, no 
better than physically destroying pieces of human history displayed in 
museums.


It's not like we're pressed for disk space there.

Thank internet gods for the Internet Archive,
Ilya

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