Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[John F. Eldredge]

I have been working as a developer for thirty years, and had never 
encountered the term "attic data" before this discussion.


On 02/04/2016 01:03 PM, Stephan Knauss wrote:

This time with correct sender ☺

On February 4, 2016 10:15:45 AM GMT+01:00, Stephan Knauss wrote:

Hello Dave and others,

While I agree in general that the wiki should be as understandable for
beginners as possible, please be aware that the audience of your
mentioned page are not beginners.

It is the technical documentation of the overpass API. Application
Program Interface. It is that piece of software an application
developer interacts with.
An API is not intended for the end user.

When you edit OSM data you also use dedicated programs for it and don't
interact with the API directly.

So it is fine when an average developer understands the page.

Having the special vocabulary explained somewhere certainly helps. But
I am quite certain it is explained in the overpass docs.

Stephan


On February 4, 2016 9:41:56 AM GMT+01:00, Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +
Dave F  wrote:


Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'?

AFAIK it is how this is named internally in Overpass API - see
https://github.com/drolbr/Overpass-API/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=attic

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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Dave F]

That's great I suppose, but wouldn't using simple language in wikis be 
much easier?


Also, your page isn't linked from anywhere. which is half the point of 
hyperlinked wiki pages?


Dave F.


On 07/02/2016 15:24, Martijn van Exel wrote:


There is now a wiki page. I initially added the content of Roland's 
email.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attic_Data


On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, 3:02 AM malenki > wrote:


On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +,
Dave F wrote:

> So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by the
> confusing nature of it's wiki pages.
>
> A simple example:
>
>

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29
>
> Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'?

Obviously because the developer named the feature "Attic Data".

> Why is there no explanation of it's meaning? After too much time
> using google I find it means old information. Why not say that?
> Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?

A year ago I would liked to have found an explanation of "Attic
Data" too, since the average OSM user knows it from the OSM website as
"history" or "chronic" (German). If the term "history" would at least
have been placed near "Attic Data" I would have found it by full text
searching the wiki page.
I was unable to connect "OSM history" and "Attic Data", even with
using
search engines. I had to ask on IRC and as I was told I was
looking for
"Attic Data" I thought 'WTF! what a stupid name! Nobody ever will find
that in the wiki'
I've added an explanation by now; hopefully it will be considered
helpful:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Overpass_API/Overpass_QL=1270275=1262567

Why didn't you do it? :)

> Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced
> users

Define the "inexperienced user", please.

I am nearly totally inexperienced in programming but even JOSM has
a built-in interface to query the Overpass API.
With overpass turbo and its wizard you need very little experience of
whatsoever to create a successful query.

>who aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that
> often goes out of fashion 6 months later).

Well, since this is a name of a feature of a wide- and heavily used
tool I doubt that it is part of a fashion hipster language.

> Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.

You can help doing this, too.

hth
Thomas


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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Dave F]

On 07/02/2016 09:43, malenki wrote:

Why is there no explanation of it's meaning? After too much time
using google I find it means old information. Why not say that?
Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?

A year ago I would liked to have found an explanation of "Attic
Data" too, since the average OSM user knows it from the OSM website as
"history" or "chronic" (German). If the term "history" would at least
have been placed near "Attic Data" I would have found it by full text
searching the wiki page.
I was unable to connect "OSM history" and "Attic Data", even with using
search engines. I had to ask on IRC and as I was told I was looking for
"Attic Data" I thought 'WTF! what a stupid name! Nobody ever will find
that in the wiki'
I've added an explanation by now; hopefully it will be considered
helpful:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Overpass_API/Overpass_QL=1270275=1262567

Why didn't you do it? :)


How? How are inexperienced users, using the wiki to learn something new, 
meant to know how to improve it when it's incorrect.


That you suggest I do it, implies you don't understand the purpose of a 
wiki.


It seems many believe it's a place to show off how knowledgeable they 
are by using the latest, trendy language.






Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced
users

Define the "inexperienced user", please.

I am nearly totally inexperienced in programming but even JOSM has
a built-in interface to query the Overpass API.
With overpass turbo and its wizard you need very little experience of
whatsoever to create a successful query.


Unsure of the relevance of that comment. I maybe able to create /a/ 
successful query, but is it the one that I require, seeing it's not 
clear what, as just one example, Attic data means.
You appear to misunderstand my main point: Putting uncommon expressions 
in the wiki (any part, not just Overpass) deters users from learning how 
to use OSM & it's offshoot programs.




who aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that
often goes out of fashion 6 months later).

Well, since this is a name of a feature of a wide- and heavily used
tool I doubt that it is part of a fashion hipster language.


That you also had to ask, & others are unaware of its meaning, proves it 
isn't in common usage.




You can help doing this, too.


Again, how?


PS This post is a good example why I don't use IRC. Responses there only 
helps one user. Here on the list or web forums a record is kept that 
*all* can read & learn from.


Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[malenki]

On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:44:38 +,
Dave F wrote:

> On 07/02/2016 09:43, malenki wrote:
> >> Why is there no explanation of it's meaning? After too much time
> >> using google I find it means old information. Why not say that?
> >> Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?  
> > A year ago I would liked to have found an explanation of "Attic
> > Data" too, since the average OSM user knows it from the OSM website
> > as "history" or "chronic" (German). If the term "history" would at
> > least have been placed near "Attic Data" I would have found it by
> > full text searching the wiki page.
> > I was unable to connect "OSM history" and "Attic Data", even with
> > using search engines. I had to ask on IRC and as I was told I was
> > looking for "Attic Data" I thought 'WTF! what a stupid name! Nobody
> > ever will find that in the wiki'
> > I've added an explanation by now; hopefully it will be considered
> > helpful:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Overpass_API/Overpass_QL=1270275=1262567
> >
> > Why didn't you do it? :)  
> 
> How?

You said yourself:
>>>[…] I find it means old information

> How are inexperienced users, 

You still didn't define what you think is an "inexperienced user". When
I think of in how many fields I am inexperienced I may as well go and
shoot me. :)

> using the wiki to learn something new, meant to know how to improve
> it when it's incorrect.

When they find a piece of information missing from the wiki they may
just add it?

> That you suggest I do it, implies you don't understand the purpose of
> a wiki.

I don't care if I understand the purpose of a wiki in the way other
people may think of it. I know that I can contribute the little I know
– and if I am wrong I hopefully get corrected. This is the same with
OSM data.

> It seems many believe it's a place to show off how knowledgeable they 
> are by using the latest, trendy language.

You repeat nonsense without proving your point.

> > I am nearly totally inexperienced in programming but even JOSM has
> > a built-in interface to query the Overpass API.
> > With overpass turbo and its wizard you need very little experience
> > of whatsoever to create a successful query.  

> You appear to misunderstand my main point: Putting uncommon
> expressions in the wiki (any part, not just Overpass) deters users
> from learning how to use OSM & it's offshoot programs.

If you refer to attic data as "uncommon" 
a) other people already mentioned that it is used since at least 25
years
b) I already explained that I also had troubles with it and that there
should be a verbose explanation on the wiki.

Would the people who put "Attic data" on the Overpass QL Page have used
"historic data" I am sure people would have complained about confusion
between historic data on the API and historic data on OSM.

Pray tell, had you written the Overpass API, how would you have named
this feature?

> >> who aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that
> >> often goes out of fashion 6 months later).  
> > Well, since this is a name of a feature of a wide- and heavily used
> > tool I doubt that it is part of a fashion hipster language.  
> 
> That you also had to ask, & others are unaware of its meaning, proves
> it isn't in common usage.

It may be not common in the GIS peer group. And as was shown, "attic"
isn't a hipster invention but quite seasoned. You may throw a 'cvs
attic' on the search engine of your liking. Regrettably Google and
Wikipedia didn't exist back then but there are a little younger entries
you may find interesting like 
https://www.dokuwiki.org/attic?do=revisions
http://de.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Data+Attic

> > You can help doing this, too.  
> 
> Again, how?

I explained it above.

> PS This post is a good example why I don't use IRC. Responses there
> only helps one user.

Who keeps you from writing your enhanced knowledge to the wiki, your
blog or elsewhere?

> Here on the list or web forums a record is kept that *all* can read
> & learn from.

Just the latency in IRC is usually a lot shorter than on the other
channels. And for me, having IRC open all the time, I just have to
write a sentence into the write channel instead of logging into a
forum, format a text and wait for an answer. In short: much lower
barriers.

hth
Thomas



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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[malenki]

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +,
Dave F wrote:

> So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by the 
> confusing nature of it's wiki pages.
> 
> A simple example:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29
> 
> Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'? 

Obviously because the developer named the feature "Attic Data".

> Why is there no explanation of it's meaning? After too much time
> using google I find it means old information. Why not say that?
> Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?

A year ago I would liked to have found an explanation of "Attic
Data" too, since the average OSM user knows it from the OSM website as
"history" or "chronic" (German). If the term "history" would at least
have been placed near "Attic Data" I would have found it by full text
searching the wiki page.
I was unable to connect "OSM history" and "Attic Data", even with using
search engines. I had to ask on IRC and as I was told I was looking for
"Attic Data" I thought 'WTF! what a stupid name! Nobody ever will find
that in the wiki'
I've added an explanation by now; hopefully it will be considered
helpful:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Overpass_API/Overpass_QL=1270275=1262567

Why didn't you do it? :)

> Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced
> users

Define the "inexperienced user", please.

I am nearly totally inexperienced in programming but even JOSM has
a built-in interface to query the Overpass API.
With overpass turbo and its wizard you need very little experience of
whatsoever to create a successful query.

>who aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that
> often goes out of fashion 6 months later).

Well, since this is a name of a feature of a wide- and heavily used
tool I doubt that it is part of a fashion hipster language.

> Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.

You can help doing this, too.

hth
Thomas


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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Martijn van Exel]

There is now a wiki page. I initially added the content of Roland's email.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attic_Data

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, 3:02 AM malenki  wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +,
> Dave F wrote:
>
> > So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by the
> > confusing nature of it's wiki pages.
> >
> > A simple example:
> >
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29
> >
> > Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'?
>
> Obviously because the developer named the feature "Attic Data".
>
> > Why is there no explanation of it's meaning? After too much time
> > using google I find it means old information. Why not say that?
> > Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?
>
> A year ago I would liked to have found an explanation of "Attic
> Data" too, since the average OSM user knows it from the OSM website as
> "history" or "chronic" (German). If the term "history" would at least
> have been placed near "Attic Data" I would have found it by full text
> searching the wiki page.
> I was unable to connect "OSM history" and "Attic Data", even with using
> search engines. I had to ask on IRC and as I was told I was looking for
> "Attic Data" I thought 'WTF! what a stupid name! Nobody ever will find
> that in the wiki'
> I've added an explanation by now; hopefully it will be considered
> helpful:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Overpass_API/Overpass_QL=1270275=1262567
>
> Why didn't you do it? :)
>
> > Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced
> > users
>
> Define the "inexperienced user", please.
>
> I am nearly totally inexperienced in programming but even JOSM has
> a built-in interface to query the Overpass API.
> With overpass turbo and its wizard you need very little experience of
> whatsoever to create a successful query.
>
> >who aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that
> > often goes out of fashion 6 months later).
>
> Well, since this is a name of a feature of a wide- and heavily used
> tool I doubt that it is part of a fashion hipster language.
>
> > Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.
>
> You can help doing this, too.
>
> hth
> Thomas
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Simon Poole]

The "attic" is used (in previous non-hipster software development
times)  as the place for storage of outdated/dead etc code Now days it
is called github :-).

Simon

Am 04.02.2016 um 08:12 schrieb Paul Johnson:
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 1:06 AM, Maarten Deen  > wrote:
>
> On 2016-02-04 07:58, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> I suspect you're onto something here; it's not a phrase that's
> even in
> my GIS vernacular.  Don't even recall it from college experience
> (though I took French and majored in civil engineering;
> amazing I'm
> not mapping professionally)...
>
>
> True. I think "attic" in this case would refer to a place where
> you store old things, so it relates to old data.
>
>
> Based on zero context other than what list it arrived on, I figured it
> was like tags from an import nobody uses anymore, like some of the
> long-in-tooth tiger:*=* namespace still common in the US.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Roland Olbricht]

Hi all,


Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'? Why is there no explanation of it's
meaning? After too much time using google I find it means old
information. Why not say that? Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit
clearer?


It is on purpose not named 'historical'. It would have become a homonym, 
and having homonyms is always asking for trouble.


There is a whole project, named OpenHistoricalMap that collects data of 
features that have existed in human history, like Roman streets. That's 
history. It's a firm definition we cannot and should not overturn. In 
particular, OpenHistoricalMap does use for a good reason tags like 
start_date and end_date independent of when a representation is written 
to the database.


What we have here are 'outdated representations' of more or less 
unchanged objects on the ground. It may sometimes reflect changes on the 
ground, but most of changes happen due to mapping refinement or 
vandalism. Hence, we need a different notion to express that we refer to 
representations that were current at an earlier point in time.


It is then indeed reused from the well-known VCS terminology: a VCS 
keeps as well the extra data necessary to turn the controlled system 
back to consistent state at an earlier date. That kind of data is called 
"attic" there, and it is precisely the same concept as we have here.


A fun fact: the whole attic feature of Overpass is designed on the same 
decisions as the CVS storage. It turns out to be quite useful. We are as 
disk-space-constraint now as the users were for source code at the time 
CVS was developed in 1990.


Best regards,

Roland


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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[mick]

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 05:18:31 +0100
Marc Gemis  wrote:

> I wonder whether this some expression in German that is translated
> literally in English.
> 
> m.
> 
My guess is it harks back to the habit of the wealthy people of moving the old 
and worn furnature up into the attics of their mansions.

mick

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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 02/04/2016 11:08 AM, Simon Poole wrote:
> The "attic" is used (in previous non-hipster software development
> times)  as the place for storage of outdated/dead etc code 

... going back at least as far as CVS where I first encountered the term
as a place where deleted stuff gets kept.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Stephan Knauss]

This time with correct sender ☺

On February 4, 2016 10:15:45 AM GMT+01:00, Stephan Knauss wrote:
>Hello Dave and others, 
>
>While I agree in general that the wiki should be as understandable for
>beginners as possible, please be aware that the audience of your
>mentioned page are not beginners. 
>
>It is the technical documentation of the overpass API. Application
>Program Interface. It is that piece of software an application
>developer interacts with. 
>An API is not intended for the end user. 
>
>When you edit OSM data you also use dedicated programs for it and don't
>interact with the API directly. 
>
>So it is fine when an average developer understands the page. 
>
>Having the special vocabulary explained somewhere certainly helps. But
>I am quite certain it is explained in the overpass docs. 
>
>Stephan 
>
>
>On February 4, 2016 9:41:56 AM GMT+01:00, Mateusz Konieczny
> wrote:
>>On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +
>>Dave F  wrote:
>>
>>> Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'?
>>
>>AFAIK it is how this is named internally in Overpass API - see
>>https://github.com/drolbr/Overpass-API/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=attic
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +
Dave F  wrote:

> Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'?

AFAIK it is how this is named internally in Overpass API - see
https://github.com/drolbr/Overpass-API/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=attic

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[OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Dave F]

Hi

So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by the 
confusing nature of it's wiki pages.


A simple example:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29

Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'? Why is there no explanation of it's 
meaning? After too much time using google I find it means old 
information. Why not say that? Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit 
clearer?


Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced users 
who aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that often goes 
out of fashion 6 months later).


Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.

Cheers
Dave F


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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Paul Johnson]

I suspect you're onto something here; it's not a phrase that's even in my
GIS vernacular.  Don't even recall it from college experience (though I
took French and majored in civil engineering; amazing I'm not mapping
professionally)...

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> I wonder whether this some expression in German that is translated
> literally in English.
>
> m.
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Dave F 
> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by the
> > confusing nature of it's wiki pages.
> >
> > A simple example:
> >
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29
> >
> > Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'? Why is there no explanation of it's
> > meaning? After too much time using google I find it means old
> information.
> > Why not say that? Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?
> >
> > Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced users
> who
> > aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that often goes out of
> > fashion 6 months later).
> >
> > Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dave F
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 1:06 AM, Maarten Deen  wrote:

> On 2016-02-04 07:58, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>> I suspect you're onto something here; it's not a phrase that's even in
>> my GIS vernacular.  Don't even recall it from college experience
>> (though I took French and majored in civil engineering; amazing I'm
>> not mapping professionally)...
>>
>
> True. I think "attic" in this case would refer to a place where you store
> old things, so it relates to old data.
>

Based on zero context other than what list it arrived on, I figured it was
like tags from an import nobody uses anymore, like some of the
long-in-tooth tiger:*=* namespace still common in the US.
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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Maarten Deen]

On 2016-02-04 07:58, Paul Johnson wrote:

I suspect you're onto something here; it's not a phrase that's even in
my GIS vernacular.  Don't even recall it from college experience
(though I took French and majored in civil engineering; amazing I'm
not mapping professionally)...


True. I think "attic" in this case would refer to a place where you 
store old things, so it relates to old data.


Regards,
Maarten


On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Marc Gemis 
wrote:


I wonder whether this some expression in German that is translated
literally in English.

m.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Dave F
 wrote:

Hi

So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by

the

confusing nature of it's wiki pages.

A simple example:





http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29


Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'? Why is there no explanation of

it's

meaning? After too much time using google I find it means old

information.

Why not say that? Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?

Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced

users who

aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that often goes

out of

fashion 6 months later).

Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.

Cheers
Dave F



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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Marc Gemis]

I wonder whether this some expression in German that is translated
literally in English.

m.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Dave F  wrote:
> Hi
>
> So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by the
> confusing nature of it's wiki pages.
>
> A simple example:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29
>
> Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'? Why is there no explanation of it's
> meaning? After too much time using google I find it means old information.
> Why not say that? Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?
>
> Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced users who
> aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that often goes out of
> fashion 6 months later).
>
> Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.
>
> Cheers
> Dave F
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>
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