Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[stevea]

There is a lot going on in this topic:  primarily, a fairly large, potentially 
unknowably large semantic of meanings the author of a fixme tag meant when 
created.  Let's be careful as we interpret these.

Assumptions by the recipient of that tag should be cautious, lest they wrongly 
predict the intent of the author.  I find fixme most useful when it paints a 
bright line forward of what needs fixing in a map datum (a node with tags, for 
example).  If the fixme tag is poorly written, ambiguous or the like, please, 
(without complaint, please) do your best to interpret how it was meant to be 
helpful and improve the tags (location, whatever) of the datum.

Data entered into our map (especially by beginners or maybe as part of a 
quickly-assembled HOT group, for example, which might include novice mappers) 
are not always perfect.  They should be at the very least "good," hopefully 
very good or excellent and during some happy fraction of data entry might even 
be called "perfect."  Yes, some OSM data remain at Version 1 of their History, 
they were that good at entry, "no improvements required" since.

Data in our map change, they live.  The lifecycle sometimes includes "fixme" 
tags.  Such tags, such a part of being in the data lifecycle means we must 
learn to do our best at improving these as we see them.  Discussion like this 
helps, but I feel sure "these should have entered perfectly to begin with" is a 
downward spiral I don't want to walk.  Let's improve data, even as we talk 
about how we improve data while we realize people can "mean" a lot of things 
with sloppy (yes, correct, if a bit harsh) data entry.  Cut this sloppiness a 
bit of slack, do your best to understand what they meant by that and improve 
what you can.  Then, our map continues to grow better (in both data and data 
quality).  Yes, this is a version of "perfection is the enemy of the good."

I know I walk right up to a line here of "don't put junk into our map, or stuff 
that'll get crufty over time" and yes, that is a real concern, I realize.

SteveA

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 4:29 PM, John Whelan  wrote:
> 
> But then you're often talking about a HOT mapper who might not have done any 
> mapping for three years.
> 
> I must confess when validating HOT projects if I saw a mapper had done 
> something glaringly wrong and it was more than a week before noting the 
> response rate to a changeset message was less than 1% I may have simply 
> corrected the work.  
> 
> I haven't been on the ground in Africa but I suspect the number of villages a 
> kilometre apart connected by a one kilometre motorway is not high.  If have I 
> reclassified someone's private motorway  I apologise.
> 
> I think we have talked around the subject enough and it should be left to the 
> local mappers to decide what to do.
> 
> Thanks John
> 
> Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote on 2020-03-12 7:17 PM:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mar 12, 2020, 23:54 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>> 
>> 
>> sent from a phone
>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 17:42, Marc M.  wrote:
>> 
>> we may delete all fixme=name for all object without a name tag
>> 
>> 
>> I agree that fixme=name for missing names is pointless and could be removed 
>> (although Andy has a point about not knowing someone’s workflow, so for 
>> safety you could spare those added in the past 1-3 months). If there are 
>> other questions concerning the name it would obviously have been better if 
>> they had been more explicit about these potential problems in the fixme tag, 
>> but still, if someone has added a fixme=name on an object with a name we 
>> should keep it.
>> Though unspecific fixme=name is not very useful, I would ask in changeset 
>> that added this
>> what exactly is wrong/suspicious if I would encounter it during editing.
>> 
>> And yes, fixme=name on object without name is likely completely useless.
>> But I would also consider asking people adding it whatever it is used in any 
>> way.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[John Whelan]

But then you're often talking about a HOT mapper who might not have done 
any mapping for three years.


I must confess when validating HOT projects if I saw a mapper had done 
something glaringly wrong and it was more than a week before noting the 
response rate to a changeset message was less than 1% I may have simply 
corrected the work.


I haven't been on the ground in Africa but I suspect the number of 
villages a kilometre apart connected by a one kilometre motorway is not 
high.  If have I reclassified someone's private motorway  I apologise.


I think we have talked around the subject enough and it should be left 
to the local mappers to decide what to do.


Thanks John

Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote on 2020-03-12 7:17 PM:




Mar 12, 2020, 23:54 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:



sent from a phone

On 12. Mar 2020, at 17:42, Marc M. 
wrote:

we may delete all fixme=name for all object without a name tag



I agree that fixme=name for missing names is pointless and could
be removed (although Andy has a point about not knowing someone’s
workflow, so for safety you could spare those added in the past
1-3 months). If there are other questions concerning the name it
would obviously have been better if they had been more explicit
about these potential problems in the fixme tag, but still, if
someone has added a fixme=name on an object with a name we should
keep it.

Though unspecific fixme=name is not very useful, I would ask in 
changeset that added this

what exactly is wrong/suspicious if I would encounter it during editing.

And yes, fixme=name on object without name is likely completely useless.
But I would also consider asking people adding it whatever it is used 
in any way.



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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Mar 12, 2020, 23:54 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 17:42, Marc M.  wrote:
>>
>> we may delete all fixme=name for all object without a name tag
>>
>
>
> I agree that fixme=name for missing names is pointless and could be removed 
> (although Andy has a point about not knowing someone’s workflow, so for 
> safety you could spare those added in the past 1-3 months). If there are 
> other questions concerning the name it would obviously have been better if 
> they had been more explicit about these potential problems in the fixme tag, 
> but still, if someone has added a fixme=name on an object with a name we 
> should keep it.
>
Though unspecific fixme=name is not very useful, I would ask in changeset that 
added this
what exactly is wrong/suspicious if I would encounter it during editing.

And yes, fixme=name on object without name is likely completely useless.
But I would also consider asking people adding it whatever it is used in any 
way.
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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Mar 2020, at 17:42, Marc M.  wrote:
> 
> we may delete all fixme=name for all object without a name tag


I agree that fixme=name for missing names is pointless and could be removed 
(although Andy has a point about not knowing someone’s workflow, so for safety 
you could spare those added in the past 1-3 months). If there are other 
questions concerning the name it would obviously have been better if they had 
been more explicit about these potential problems in the fixme tag, but still, 
if someone has added a fixme=name on an object with a name we should keep it.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[Pierre Béland via talk]

 Mar.12 2020 12 h 16 UTC−4, Volker Schmidt wrote :  
> It may have been a user who wanted to draw attention to the fact that she has 
> inserted a place>  without knowing the name.
 For the Mali example given by John, an Overpass query reports some 1,200 such 
points north of Mali, the majority added in 2013. Note that I did coordinate 
the humanitarian response at the time with Andrew Buck. See his message at the 
time https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2013-February/002802.html 

These names were added for the Mali humanitarian response in 2013 at the 
request of UN agencies and NGO's answering in the area.  If we remember, we did 
innovate at the time using Imagery tiles to spot villages in often flooded 
areas, then traced roads from these villages. Then NGIS data was imported. 
Since geolocation is often very imprecise, we did manually add these infos 
placing them at the best of our knowledge.
The local ressources are still quite limited in Mali even at the government 
level.  The OSM volunteer community has organized a few missions in the south 
to revise names but it is more difficult to deal with the northern area.  And 
badly, the volunteers do not manage the subsidies that were received from such 
humanitarian actions.


Pierre 

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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Volker Schmidt wrote
> draw attention to the fact that she
> has inserted a place without knowing the name

not setting a name=* tag do the same, without
telling other that your personal wish must be done.
otherwise another contributor will add fix=lit when he doesn't know if
the street is lit, another will add fixme=cuisine when he doesn't know
the type of cuisine, and in the end we could put fixme=list of all
possible tags on this object.
fixme must, imho, give a precise indication of an error to correct,
it's not a replacement for quests like StreetComplete.

si we may delete all fixme=name for all object without a name tag

Regards,
Marc

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[OSM-talk] fixme=name

[Volker Schmidt]

Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:09:09 -0400
> From: john whelan 
> To: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> Subject: [OSM-talk] fixme=name
> Message-ID:
>  nr_vr93qs7pna4z...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I'm seeing a fair number of settlements with this fixme tagged on them and
> I'm not sure what the logic is.
>

It may have been a user who wanted to draw attention to the fact that she
has inserted a place without knowing the name.
I am using fixme frequently on a similar way, when I encounter ditches or
similar minor water features in the Mapillary images and in the satellite
image that are crossing the highway I am mapping. I put a bridge or culvert
on the crossing and put a stretch of the water feature in the map, without
trying to follow it entirely, I frequently put something like "fixme=
name?; flow direction?; incomplete" as I think it is important to note that
there is this water course crossing the highway , but I have not followed
it up.
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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[john whelan]

I'm looking in Mali, looking at the history of a sample I'd say they were
HOT mapped and many are more than four years old.

Cheerio John



On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 12/03/2020 13:09, john whelan wrote:
>
> I'm seeing a fair number of settlements with this fixme tagged on them and
> I'm not sure what the logic is.
>
> There are 39k "fixme=name" worldwide.  I suspect usage varies greatly
> worldwide; it would be useful to know which ones you're looking at.
>
> The nearest few to me (at https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Rxh , for info)
> seem to be either "name from one source disagrees with name from another
> source, needs more investigation" or "name was copied from an
> out-of-copyright map and is probably rubbish".
>
>
>
> I would have thought it is fairly simple to search for place=village
> without a name tag or am I missing something?
>
> It depends.  I'm guessing based on your previous list discussions, but
> perhaps someone's been remotely mapping areas that HOT or similar projects
> have an interest in, have identified a settlement from imagery but
> (obviously) do not know its name?
>
> Adding "fixme=name" doesn't add any value when the "name" tag is missing.
> as everyone can see that the name tag is missing.  Also, adding 1000s of
> new fixmes to an area (that add no value) will overwhelm the existing ones
> that aren't obvious (and I'm speaking as someone who regularly looks at
> local fixmes when out and about).  That said, I wouldn't mass-delete such
> fixmes either as you don't know what workflows people are using locally to
> try and correct these.
>
> With regard to searching, if someone is searching for a village by name
> then clearly they won't find it if it is unnamed, regardless of the search
> method.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[joost schouppe]

John,
I created a bunch of those a few years back, when I was still young(er) and
(more) naive. Someone had gone and mapped a bunch of villages with the
equivalent of name=village. Instead of just removing the name, I also added
a fixme to highlight the issue. Someone did point out after the fact that
that was useless - I just hadn't realized it.

Op do 12 mrt. 2020 om 14:12 schreef john whelan :

> I'm seeing a fair number of settlements with this fixme tagged on them and
> I'm not sure what the logic is.
>
> I would have thought it is fairly simple to search for place=village
> without a name tag or am I missing something?
>
> Thanks John
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-- 
Joost Schouppe
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Twitter  | LinkedIn
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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/03/2020 13:09, john whelan wrote:
I'm seeing a fair number of settlements with this fixme tagged on them 
and I'm not sure what the logic is.


There are 39k "fixme=name" worldwide.  I suspect usage varies greatly 
worldwide; it would be useful to know which ones you're looking at.


The nearest few to me (at https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Rxh , for info) 
seem to be either "name from one source disagrees with name from another 
source, needs more investigation" or "name was copied from an 
out-of-copyright map and is probably rubbish".





I would have thought it is fairly simple to search for place=village 
without a name tag or am I missing something?


It depends.  I'm guessing based on your previous list discussions, but 
perhaps someone's been remotely mapping areas that HOT or similar 
projects have an interest in, have identified a settlement from imagery 
but (obviously) do not know its name?


Adding "fixme=name" doesn't add any value when the "name" tag is 
missing. as everyone can see that the name tag is missing.  Also, adding 
1000s of new fixmes to an area (that add no value) will overwhelm the 
existing ones that aren't obvious (and I'm speaking as someone who 
regularly looks at local fixmes when out and about).  That said, I 
wouldn't mass-delete such fixmes either as you don't know what workflows 
people are using locally to try and correct these.


With regard to searching, if someone is searching for a village by name 
then clearly they won't find it if it is unnamed, regardless of the 
search method.


Best Regards,

Andy


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[OSM-talk] fixme=name

[john whelan]

I'm seeing a fair number of settlements with this fixme tagged on them and
I'm not sure what the logic is.

I would have thought it is fairly simple to search for place=village
without a name tag or am I missing something?

Thanks John
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