Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

They responded a few days ago but, as we're travelling atm, I didn't have a
chance to do anything about it.

Their response:

"We sincerely appreciate your efforts in bringing to our attention the
organised edits rules and guidelines, of which we were previously unaware.
We acknowledge the necessity to adhere to these guidelines and commit to
creating a wiki page for our organised edits accordingly. However, we
kindly request some time to complete this task.

Regarding our compliance with other editing rules, we are confident that we
are fully adhering to them. It's important to note that our system utilises
tools that rely on OpenStreetMap data. Upon discovering numerous
discrepancies in the NSW speed zone data within OpenStreetMap, we initiated
edits to rectify these inconsistencies.

Our editing process follows a detailed verification procedure, outlined as
follows:


   1. A driver reports a speed discrepancy on a specific road.
   2. The driver report undergoes thorough verification and is escalated
   for further examination.
   3. We utilise NSW Speed Data (
   https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones) to verify the
   reported speed limit.
   4. If the claimed speed limit aligns with the NSW Speed Data, we proceed
   to update it in OpenStreetMap.
   5. Conversely, if the reported speed limit does not match the NSW Speed
   Data, we reject the claim. However, if multiple drivers report the same
   speed limit discrepancy over time, we request evidence from the drivers,
   often resulting in the provision of images depicting posted speed limit
   signs. Based on this evidence, we update the speed limits in OpenStreetMap
   accordingly.


We are eager to address any discrepancies that other mappers may have
reported concerning the edits we have made. Could they kindly provide us
with evidence to facilitate a detailed investigation? This will enable us
to reassess and update our map editing processes as necessary.

Our primary objective in making these edits is to enhance the experience of
our drivers and community. Therefore, we welcome any suggestions or further
discussion that would contribute to ensuring the accuracy of our edits."

Don't know if that answers the questions you have?

I've suggested that they set up an account here to talk about what they are
doing.

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 at 11:36, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Message sent to User pointing out the OE Guidelines & also asking for
> their sources.
>
> To f/up next week.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 22:10, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
>> On 21/02/2024 11:45, Mark Pulley wrote:
>>
>> I’ve got some further info on how this user has been editing (see comment
>> on changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 )
>>
>> In short, Harsimranjit works for an un-named company. Unspecified people
>> can report an incorrect speed limit on a road segment, it is verified
>> (?how?) by someone else in the company, then goes to Harsimranjit who
>> checks the claimed speed limit change with NSW Speed Zone Data, then if the
>> NSW Speed Zone Data matches the proposed change, the edit is made. This
>> process has obviously not worked in at least a few of these changesets (the
>> ones I found had been changed incorrectly).
>>
>>
>> Separate to any other issues, at the very least, that company should be
>> following the organised editing guidelines.  If you drop an email to
>> d...@openstreetmap.org, we can try and persuade them to do so.  I don't
>> think we've had a ticket or report about this particular one so far.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy (from the DWG)
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Message sent to User pointing out the OE Guidelines & also asking for their
sources.

To f/up next week.

Thanks

Graeme


On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 22:10, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 21/02/2024 11:45, Mark Pulley wrote:
>
> I’ve got some further info on how this user has been editing (see comment
> on changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 )
>
> In short, Harsimranjit works for an un-named company. Unspecified people
> can report an incorrect speed limit on a road segment, it is verified
> (?how?) by someone else in the company, then goes to Harsimranjit who
> checks the claimed speed limit change with NSW Speed Zone Data, then if the
> NSW Speed Zone Data matches the proposed change, the edit is made. This
> process has obviously not worked in at least a few of these changesets (the
> ones I found had been changed incorrectly).
>
>
> Separate to any other issues, at the very least, that company should be
> following the organised editing guidelines.  If you drop an email to
> d...@openstreetmap.org, we can try and persuade them to do so.  I don't
> think we've had a ticket or report about this particular one so far.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy (from the DWG)
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/02/2024 11:45, Mark Pulley wrote:
I’ve got some further info on how this user has been editing (see 
comment on changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 )


In short, Harsimranjit works for an un-named company. Unspecified 
people can report an incorrect speed limit on a road segment, it is 
verified (?how?) by someone else in the company, then goes to 
Harsimranjit who checks the claimed speed limit change with NSW Speed 
Zone Data, then if the NSW Speed Zone Data matches the proposed 
change, the edit is made. This process has obviously not worked in at 
least a few of these changesets (the ones I found had been changed 
incorrectly).



Separate to any other issues, at the very least, that company should be 
following the organised editing guidelines.  If you drop an email to 
d...@openstreetmap.org, we can try and persuade them to do so.  I don't 
think we've had a ticket or report about this particular one so far.


Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)


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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Mark Pulley]

I’ve got some further info on how this user has been editing (see comment on 
changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 )

In short, Harsimranjit works for an un-named company. Unspecified people can 
report an incorrect speed limit on a road segment, it is verified (?how?) by 
someone else in the company, then goes to Harsimranjit who checks the claimed 
speed limit change with NSW Speed Zone Data, then if the NSW Speed Zone Data 
matches the proposed change, the edit is made. This process has obviously not 
worked in at least a few of these changesets (the ones I found had been changed 
incorrectly).

Mark P.

> On 19 Feb 2024, at 8:19 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:
> 
> I haven’t done any reversions yet. I was planning to start from the oldest 
> changeset and work forwards, however the oldest changesets don’s specify a 
> source. I’ve asked about a couple of these including:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 - first changeset - on 
> outskirts of Wilcannia
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117831384 - outskirts of Old Junee
> 
> Both of these are claimed to be from information provided by ’someone’ who 
> had travelled on those roads. I’ve just asked for more info regarding the 
> source of this information.
> 
> I also queried a couple of recent edits from 'local information and NSW Speed 
> Data’:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147432769 - western edge of Kempsey 
> from 'local information and NSW Speed Data’ - also from ’someone’ who had 
> travelled on those roads.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146881278 - private driveway near 
> Brooms Head from 'local information’ - I had previously surveyed this 
> maxspeed, and recent Google imagery showed the same limit. No reply regarding 
> this one.
> 
> How should I (or we) approach this? Will I need to check available imagery 
> for every changeset? Should I go ahead and revert the NSW Speed Data ones?
> 
> Mark P.
> 
>> On 12 Feb 2024, at 2:45 pm, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
>> 
>> No objections from me. They haven't responded yet, and from everything we 
>> can tell they imported the data without any other cross checks and didn't 
>> follow the import guidelines.
>> 
>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 22:00, Mark Pulley > > wrote:
>>> I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from my last 
>>> holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any objections?
>>> 
>>> Mark P.

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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Bob Cameron]

Hi Mark

Although not anywhere conclusive I made a Mapillary capture outbound on 
Woore Street Wilcannia 5/2022 that shows what are likely to be the dual 
50/100 transition signs (smudges) well before the changeset. Might be 
useful..


Bob

On 19/2/24 20:19, Mark Pulley wrote:
I haven’t done any reversions yet. I was planning to start from the 
oldest changeset and work forwards, however the oldest changesets 
don’s specify a source. I’ve asked about a couple of these including:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 - first changeset - 
on outskirts of Wilcannia

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117831384 - outskirts of Old Junee

Both of these are claimed to be from information provided by ’someone’ 
who had travelled on those roads. I’ve just asked for more info 
regarding the source of this information.


I also queried a couple of recent edits from 'local information and 
NSW Speed Data’:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147432769 - western edge of 
Kempsey from 'local information and NSW Speed Data’ - also from 
’someone’ who had travelled on those roads.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146881278 - private driveway 
near Brooms Head from 'local information’ - I had previously surveyed 
this maxspeed, and recent Google imagery showed the same limit. No 
reply regarding this one.


How should I (or we) approach this? Will I need to check available 
imagery for every changeset? Should I go ahead and revert the NSW 
Speed Data ones?


Mark P.

On 12 Feb 2024, at 2:45 pm, Andrew Harvey  
wrote:


No objections from me. They haven't responded yet, and from 
everything we can tell they imported the data without any other cross 
checks and didn't follow the import guidelines.


On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 22:00, Mark Pulley  wrote:

I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from
my last holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any
objections?

Mark P.


On 9 Feb 2024, at 9:57 am, Andrew Harvey
 wrote:

We do have permissions to use this data it's listed in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales,
however from looking at their changeset history, it looks like

1. They are conducting an import by en-mass blindly adding and
replacing existing data with the imported data
2. They may be engaging in directed mapping (being employed to
make these changes), since their changesets are all the same,
importing speed limits, except for one Local Knowledge changeset
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/131210459 in India.

If they want to conduct an import like this, they need to go
through the proper process, so based on and the issues you've
rased it should be fine to revert all their affected changes and
then ask going forward to go through the import guidelines
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines.


On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:32, Mark Pulley 
wrote:

Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence
suitable for importing into OSM? Also, is it generally
accurate?
https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones

https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw

The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads
with speed zones updated based on this data. The biggest
problem is that the changes made in these three changesets
were incorrect (i.e. the previously surveyed maxspeeds were
updated from this data, but on survey in December 2023 the
original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one).

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603

Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I
haven’t checked the accuracy of them.

Mark P.

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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Mark Pulley]

I haven’t done any reversions yet. I was planning to start from the oldest 
changeset and work forwards, however the oldest changesets don’s specify a 
source. I’ve asked about a couple of these including:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117791362 - first changeset - on 
outskirts of Wilcannia
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117831384 - outskirts of Old Junee

Both of these are claimed to be from information provided by ’someone’ who had 
travelled on those roads. I’ve just asked for more info regarding the source of 
this information.

I also queried a couple of recent edits from 'local information and NSW Speed 
Data’:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147432769 - western edge of Kempsey 
from 'local information and NSW Speed Data’ - also from ’someone’ who had 
travelled on those roads.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146881278 - private driveway near 
Brooms Head from 'local information’ - I had previously surveyed this maxspeed, 
and recent Google imagery showed the same limit. No reply regarding this one.

How should I (or we) approach this? Will I need to check available imagery for 
every changeset? Should I go ahead and revert the NSW Speed Data ones?

Mark P.

> On 12 Feb 2024, at 2:45 pm, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> No objections from me. They haven't responded yet, and from everything we can 
> tell they imported the data without any other cross checks and didn't follow 
> the import guidelines.
> 
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 22:00, Mark Pulley  > wrote:
>> I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from my last 
>> holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any objections?
>> 
>> Mark P.
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2024, at 9:57 am, Andrew Harvey >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> We do have permissions to use this data it's listed in 
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales,
>>>  however from looking at their changeset history, it looks like
>>> 
>>> 1. They are conducting an import by en-mass blindly adding and replacing 
>>> existing data with the imported data
>>> 2. They may be engaging in directed mapping (being employed to make these 
>>> changes), since their changesets are all the same, importing speed limits, 
>>> except for one Local Knowledge changeset 
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/131210459 in India.
>>> 
>>> If they want to conduct an import like this, they need to go through the 
>>> proper process, so based on and the issues you've rased it should be fine 
>>> to revert all their affected changes and then ask going forward to go 
>>> through the import guidelines 
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:32, Mark Pulley >> > wrote:
 Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence suitable for 
 importing into OSM? Also, is it generally accurate?
 https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones
 https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw
 
 The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads with speed 
 zones updated based on this data. The biggest problem is that the changes 
 made in these three changesets were incorrect (i.e. the previously 
 surveyed maxspeeds were updated from this data, but on survey in December 
 2023 the original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one). 
 
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603
 
 Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I haven’t checked 
 the accuracy of them.
 
 Mark P.
 
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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Andrew Harvey]

No objections from me. They haven't responded yet, and from everything we
can tell they imported the data without any other cross checks and didn't
follow the import guidelines.

On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 22:00, Mark Pulley  wrote:

> I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from my last
> holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any objections?
>
> Mark P.
>
> On 9 Feb 2024, at 9:57 am, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
>
> We do have permissions to use this data it's listed in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales,
> however from looking at their changeset history, it looks like
>
> 1. They are conducting an import by en-mass blindly adding and replacing
> existing data with the imported data
> 2. They may be engaging in directed mapping (being employed to make these
> changes), since their changesets are all the same, importing speed limits,
> except for one Local Knowledge changeset
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/131210459 in India.
>
> If they want to conduct an import like this, they need to go through the
> proper process, so based on and the issues you've rased it should be fine
> to revert all their affected changes and then ask going forward to go
> through the import guidelines
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines.
>
>
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:32, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>
>> Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence suitable for
>> importing into OSM? Also, is it generally accurate?
>> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones
>>
>> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw
>>
>> The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads with speed
>> zones updated based on this data. The biggest problem is that the changes
>> made in these three changesets were incorrect (i.e. the previously surveyed
>> maxspeeds were updated from this data, but on survey in December 2023 the
>> original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one).
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603
>>
>> Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I haven’t checked
>> the accuracy of them.
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Mark Pulley]

I’ve got some spare time (having caught up with the surveys from my last 
holidays), so I can go through these and revert them. Any objections?

Mark P.

> On 9 Feb 2024, at 9:57 am, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> We do have permissions to use this data it's listed in 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales, 
> however from looking at their changeset history, it looks like
> 
> 1. They are conducting an import by en-mass blindly adding and replacing 
> existing data with the imported data
> 2. They may be engaging in directed mapping (being employed to make these 
> changes), since their changesets are all the same, importing speed limits, 
> except for one Local Knowledge changeset 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/131210459 in India.
> 
> If they want to conduct an import like this, they need to go through the 
> proper process, so based on and the issues you've rased it should be fine to 
> revert all their affected changes and then ask going forward to go through 
> the import guidelines https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines.
> 
> 
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:32, Mark Pulley  > wrote:
>> Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence suitable for 
>> importing into OSM? Also, is it generally accurate?
>> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones
>> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw
>> 
>> The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads with speed zones 
>> updated based on this data. The biggest problem is that the changes made in 
>> these three changesets were incorrect (i.e. the previously surveyed 
>> maxspeeds were updated from this data, but on survey in December 2023 the 
>> original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one). 
>> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603
>> 
>> Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I haven’t checked 
>> the accuracy of them.
>> 
>> Mark P.
>> 
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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Andrew Harvey]

We do have permissions to use this data it's listed in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales,
however from looking at their changeset history, it looks like

1. They are conducting an import by en-mass blindly adding and replacing
existing data with the imported data
2. They may be engaging in directed mapping (being employed to make these
changes), since their changesets are all the same, importing speed limits,
except for one Local Knowledge changeset
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/131210459 in India.

If they want to conduct an import like this, they need to go through the
proper process, so based on and the issues you've rased it should be fine
to revert all their affected changes and then ask going forward to go
through the import guidelines
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines.


On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 21:32, Mark Pulley  wrote:

> Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence suitable for
> importing into OSM? Also, is it generally accurate?
> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones
>
> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw
>
> The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads with speed
> zones updated based on this data. The biggest problem is that the changes
> made in these three changesets were incorrect (i.e. the previously surveyed
> maxspeeds were updated from this data, but on survey in December 2023 the
> original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one).
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603
>
> Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I haven’t checked
> the accuracy of them.
>
> Mark P.
>
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Re: [talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Andrew Welch via Talk-au]

Bottom of the Speed Zones page has a link to CC-BY 4.0, so it’s okay only
if we have a waiver for not being able to directly attribute them. There’s
one for DataSA on the wiki as an example.

Thanks,
Andrew Welch
m...@andrewwelch.net


On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 9:01 pm, Mark Pulley  wrote:

> Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence suitable for
> importing into OSM? Also, is it generally accurate?
> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones
>
> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw
>
> The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads with speed
> zones updated based on this data. The biggest problem is that the changes
> made in these three changesets were incorrect (i.e. the previously surveyed
> maxspeeds were updated from this data, but on survey in December 2023 the
> original surveyed maxspeed was the correct one).
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603
>
> Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I haven’t checked
> the accuracy of them.
>
> Mark P.
>
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[talk-au] Question about using NSW Speed Zone Data in OSM

[Mark Pulley]

Does the NSW Government Speed Zone data have a licence suitable for importing 
into OSM? Also, is it generally accurate?
https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/speed-zones
https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/road-segment-data-from-datansw

The reason I ask is that I recently came across a few roads with speed zones 
updated based on this data. The biggest problem is that the changes made in 
these three changesets were incorrect (i.e. the previously surveyed maxspeeds 
were updated from this data, but on survey in December 2023 the original 
surveyed maxspeed was the correct one). 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129760120
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759614
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/129759603

Other changesets have been made based on this data, but I haven’t checked the 
accuracy of them.

Mark P.

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