Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[David Lichti]

Am 01.06.21 um 21:25 schrieb Jarek Piórkowski:

Yes, and some people would like to use this free (Free),
computer-readable dataset to find out whether you should take the
train from Windsor and Eton Central or Riverside.

While other are giving advice on whether it is wise to even try to do this.

Doing timetabling software development for a living, I can tell you that 
train operators and infrastructure managers are paying hordes of 
planners using very complex and specialized tools to manage their 
schedules. This is far beyond the scope and intent of OSM.


OSM is a mapping tool, not a scheduling tool. If you want intermodal 
routing, a combination of OSM with any reliable schedule data source is 
the way to go.


Hälsningar

David


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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Dave F via Talk-transit]

On 01/06/2021 19:37, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:


Why bother with OSM at all then? Just look at a Ordnance Survey map 
and use your sentience to find what you're looking for.




OSM is free.

OSM is not a database sink.

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 13:34, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 13:07 -0400, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 12:38 Dave F via Talk-transit <
> > talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > > On 01/06/2021 16:11, Christopher Parker wrote:
> > > > On 6/1/2021 10:54 AM, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:
> > > > > What's wrong with consulting a timetable?
> > > >
> > > > To consult a timetable you need to know what station to use.
> > >
> > > Then map the stations!
> >
> > So we've mapped the stations Windsor and Eton Central and Windsor and
> > Eton Riverside, now how do we know which station timetable to consult
> > to find out how to get to Paddington? Riverside is marginally closer to
> > Paddington as the bird flies.
>
> Traveline https://www.traveline.info/
>
> Uses OSM and includes walking and buses, so will calculate the best
> station to walk to for the quickest journey. Other options are
> available.

Well the question was about knowing which timetable to consult off of
station(s) ref/ID tagged in OSM, based off a claim that all that's needed
in OSM are the refs. If we're going to just use Traveline, why bother
mapping any transport at all?
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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 14:15 Dave F via Talk-transit <
talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 01/06/2021 18:07, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 12:38 Dave F via Talk-transit <
> talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> On 01/06/2021 16:11, Christopher Parker wrote:
>> >
>> > On 6/1/2021 10:54 AM, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:
>> >> What's wrong with consulting a timetable?
>> >
>> > To consult a timetable you need to know what station to use.
>>
>> Then map the stations!
>>
>
>
> So we've mapped the stations Windsor and Eton Central and Windsor and Eton
> Riverside, now how do we know which station timetable to consult to find
> out how to get to Paddington? Riverside is marginally closer to Paddington
> as the bird flies.
>
>
>
> You use a 'timetable' https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ a make a sentient
> decision based on what you discover.
>

Why bother with OSM at all then? Just look at a Ordnance Survey map and use
your sentience to find what you're looking for.

You appear to assume OSM should contain all the data in the world and make
> you tea & toast each morning. It doesn't, & can't.
>

Sorry, what's the tag for toast, is it highway=toast_shop?
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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 19:16 +0100, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:
> 
> 
> On 01/06/2021 18:32, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 13:07 -0400, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 12:38 Dave F via Talk-transit <
> > > talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > > > On 01/06/2021 16:11, Christopher Parker wrote:
> > > > > On 6/1/2021 10:54 AM, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:
> > > > > > What's wrong with consulting a timetable?
> > > > > To consult a timetable you need to know what station to use.
> > > > Then map the stations!
> > > 
> > > So we've mapped the stations Windsor and Eton Central and Windsor
> > > and
> > > Eton Riverside, now how do we know which station timetable to
> > > consult
> > > to find out how to get to Paddington? Riverside is marginally
> > > closer to
> > > Paddington as the bird flies.
> > Traveline https://www.traveline.info/
> > 
> > Uses OSM
> 
> Database or just tiles?
> Many things look slightly offset in Traveline.

Database I believe, used to come across their mappers adding to OSM.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Dave F via Talk-transit]

On 01/06/2021 18:32, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 13:07 -0400, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 12:38 Dave F via Talk-transit <
talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

On 01/06/2021 16:11, Christopher Parker wrote:

On 6/1/2021 10:54 AM, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:

What's wrong with consulting a timetable?

To consult a timetable you need to know what station to use.

Then map the stations!


So we've mapped the stations Windsor and Eton Central and Windsor and
Eton Riverside, now how do we know which station timetable to consult
to find out how to get to Paddington? Riverside is marginally closer to
Paddington as the bird flies.

Traveline https://www.traveline.info/

Uses OSM


Database or just tiles?
Many things look slightly offset in Traveline.

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Dave F via Talk-transit]

On 01/06/2021 18:07, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 12:38 Dave F via Talk-transit 
> wrote:


On 01/06/2021 16:11, Christopher Parker wrote:
>
> On 6/1/2021 10:54 AM, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:
>> What's wrong with consulting a timetable?
>
> To consult a timetable you need to know what station to use.

Then map the stations!



So we've mapped the stations Windsor and Eton Central and Windsor and 
Eton Riverside, now how do we know which station timetable to consult 
to find out how to get to Paddington? Riverside is marginally closer 
to Paddington as the bird flies.





You use a 'timetable' https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ a make a sentient 
decision based on what you discover.


You appear to assume OSM should contain all the data in the world and 
make you tea & toast each morning. It doesn't, & can't.


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 13:07 -0400, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 12:38 Dave F via Talk-transit < 
> talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > On 01/06/2021 16:11, Christopher Parker wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 6/1/2021 10:54 AM, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:
> > > > What's wrong with consulting a timetable?
> > > 
> > > To consult a timetable you need to know what station to use.
> > 
> > Then map the stations!
> 
> 
> So we've mapped the stations Windsor and Eton Central and Windsor and
> Eton Riverside, now how do we know which station timetable to consult
> to find out how to get to Paddington? Riverside is marginally closer to
> Paddington as the bird flies.

Traveline https://www.traveline.info/

Uses OSM and includes walking and buses, so will calculate the best
station to walk to for the quickest journey. Other options are
available.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Dave F via Talk-transit]

Which is why OSM has route relations. Michael's wanting to add services 
& timetables to route relations. The data is too transient & time 
consuming to maintain for OSM. Sort the basics out. Learn to walk before 
running.


DaveF

On 01/06/2021 15:59, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
Without route relations, OSM shows where you can get on the 
train/vehicle, but not where you can go


On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 10:58 Dave F via Talk-transit 
> wrote:


What's wrong with consulting a timetable?

Maps show you where you can go, timetables tell you when .

DaveF

On 01/06/2021 01:18, Michael Tsang wrote:

> I think you are missing the point that GB is not a city.

> Cities are densly pack and urban transport systems reflect this. In
London tube trains simply stop at every station.

> This structure will not work when it comes to rural stations,
and what
we have works very well. It would not be efficient to stop every
trains
at stations which only have a few dozen passengers in a day.

Other European countries are doing it much better. The routes are
numbered. There are designated express services with stops only
in big cities. The rural stations have only local stopping
services which call at every stop en-route.

We don't even have a useful route map from train companies that
can work out which train I should take without consulting the
timetable.


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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[john whelan]

One problem I had when living in the UK was deciding which station to use
to travel up to London.  Mother who worked as a midwife had been told one
station by the nurses at the hospital.  Fine except it was a 20 minute
drive to get there and the fairly high frequency but stopping tube would
get you into the city fairly quickly.  Later I used the station that was
ten minutes walk away.  That saved the 20 minute drive and has fewer stops
at stations.  Years later I found another station 15 minutes walk away that
ran into Liverpool street with only one stop.  Much the fastest but I'd
been living there more than ten years before I uncovered it.  There was
another line I used occasionally that ran into Kings Cross and occasionally
that would best depending on where you were going to.

So it is a mixture sometimes of which station to use and how that gets you
to your destination.  Don't get me started on tickets and which to use.

The route planners make it much easier than obtaining the old paper
timetables and pouring through them.

Does all this complexity belong in OSM?  Probably not our strength I think
is in the mapping of stations etc and let someone else sort the rest out.

Cheerio John



On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 11:29 Dave F via Talk-transit <
talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> What's wrong with consulting a timetable?
>
> Maps show you where you can go, timetables tell you when .
>
> DaveF
>
> On 01/06/2021 01:18, Michael Tsang wrote:
>
> > I think you are missing the point that GB is not a city.
>
> > Cities are densly pack and urban transport systems reflect this. In
> London tube trains simply stop at every station.
>
> > This structure will not work when it comes to rural stations, and what
> we have works very well. It would not be efficient to stop every trains
> at stations which only have a few dozen passengers in a day.
>
> Other European countries are doing it much better. The routes are
> numbered. There are designated express services with stops only in big
> cities. The rural stations have only local stopping services which call at
> every stop en-route.
>
> We don't even have a useful route map from train companies that can work
> out which train I should take without consulting the timetable.
>
>
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>
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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Christopher Parker]

On 6/1/2021 10:54 AM, Dave F via Talk-transit wrote:

What's wrong with consulting a timetable?


To consult a timetable you need to know what station to use.

This is currently a problem in open railway map.  You can search the map 
based on the name of the train station, but not based on actual towns or 
other locations.  It is even more of an annoying problem in north 
America where large swaths of the railway network have no passenger 
service and therefor no stations.  If you want to look at railways in 
Tennessee, for example, the closest you can get is Memphis, which is a 
long way and a lot of scrolling from Nashville, Johnson City or Bristol 
(a days drive).  [Of course the real problem here is the US passenger 
rail network, but we aren't going to fix that here.]


Christopher


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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Jarek Piórkowski]

Without route relations, OSM shows where you can get on the train/vehicle,
but not where you can go

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021, 10:58 Dave F via Talk-transit <
talk-transit@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> What's wrong with consulting a timetable?
>
> Maps show you where you can go, timetables tell you when .
>
> DaveF
>
> On 01/06/2021 01:18, Michael Tsang wrote:
>
> > I think you are missing the point that GB is not a city.
>
> > Cities are densly pack and urban transport systems reflect this. In
> London tube trains simply stop at every station.
>
> > This structure will not work when it comes to rural stations, and what
> we have works very well. It would not be efficient to stop every trains
> at stations which only have a few dozen passengers in a day.
>
> Other European countries are doing it much better. The routes are
> numbered. There are designated express services with stops only in big
> cities. The rural stations have only local stopping services which call at
> every stop en-route.
>
> We don't even have a useful route map from train companies that can work
> out which train I should take without consulting the timetable.
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Dave F via Talk-transit]

What's wrong with consulting a timetable?

Maps show you where you can go, timetables tell you when .

DaveF

On 01/06/2021 01:18, Michael Tsang wrote:

> I think you are missing the point that GB is not a city.

> Cities are densly pack and urban transport systems reflect this. In
London tube trains simply stop at every station.

> This structure will not work when it comes to rural stations, and what
we have works very well. It would not be efficient to stop every trains
at stations which only have a few dozen passengers in a day.

Other European countries are doing it much better. The routes are 
numbered. There are designated express services with stops only in big 
cities. The rural stations have only local stopping services which 
call at every stop en-route.


We don't even have a useful route map from train companies that can 
work out which train I should take without consulting the timetable.



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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Dave F via Talk-transit]

For the last few years I've added/deleted & maintained Britain's railway 
stations. All National Rail stations (currently 2571) have the Station's 
3 digit CRS code (ref:crs=*). This is the public facing code which 
allows routing developers to link to NR webpages which provide more 
*accurate* detail than can be in the OSM database.


https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/SFD/details.html
https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ldbboard/dep/SFD

I took a brief look at railway NapTAN/ATCO codes. It appears some got 
confused between StopPoints/StopAreas and codes for the station itself & 
all its various entrances. A right pig's ear. I gave up.


DaveF


On 31/05/2021 23:14, 10992 via Talk-GB wrote:

And I would have thought that the best way forward is surely to ensure that bus 
stops / train stations etc are properly mapped and tagged 
(NaPTAN/ATCO/3-alpha/TIPLOC etc), so that they can be linked to the appropriate 
data for routing engines to use, rather than attempting to duplicate data in 
OSM.  For most purposes, as long as all stops are mapped, the route a train/bus 
takes is irrelevant (thought there may well be some cases where it is useful).  
It may well be that some open data that is available could facilitate automatic 
maintenance of route relations in OSM, but if it were to be so easily 
transferable, that would negate the point to an extent, since routing engines 
could do it themselves.

10992

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, 31 May 2021 22:54, Philip Barnes  wrote:


On Mon, 2021-05-31 at 22:18 +0100, Michael Tsang wrote:


On Monday, 31 May 2021 16:14:47 BST Roger Slevin wrote:


and one in which I agree with Tony, Mark and Peter in saying that
public
transport services and timetables don’t appear to me to have a
valid place
in OSM

We have already mapped the complete bus networks in certain cities.
In OSM
terms, a public transport route is defined as "the order where the
service
stops to carry passengers, and the path where it transverse on". It
does not
include the timetable data.
I have also mapped a lot of bus and train routes in different cities
as well,
and it is very useful for OSM to have bus and train routes. When I
travel to a
new city I use OsmAnd a lot to find which bus I need to take to go to
a certain
direction, and where it will stop.

I think you are missing the point that GB is not a city.

Cities are densly pack and urban transport systems reflect this. In
London tube trains simply stop at every station.

This structure will not work when it comes to rural stations, and what
we have works very well. It would not be efficient to stop every trains
at stations which only have a few dozen passengers in a day.


The problem with GB railways is that each departure serves completely
different
stops, which means, if we strictly follow the "one variant = one
relation"
model as in current PTv2 schema, we have to map each departure as
distinct
relations on the map, because each departure serves different stops,
which mean
they are different variants.

You also have to remember that the timetables and hence services are
seasonal to reflect different passenger demands.

Many of us have thought about train routes but concluded on a country
level they are too complex and require a huge amount of mainatainance.
The timetable changes every 6 months, and as a minimum needs to be
checked.

I started thinking about my local station, to the North trains can go
to Crewe, Chester or Manchester Piccadilly. To the south trains can go
to Shrewsbury, Birmingham International, Cardiff Central, Swansea,
Carmathen, Pembroke Dock, Milford Haven and Fishguard. That is all
before to start considering which of the dozens of stations each
service calls, or may call at if it is a request stop.

As other have said, this is not something that belongs in OSM.

If you need to work out how to get somewhere then the train companies
apps and websites work very well. If you want to include buses as well
the traveline is excellent.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Mapping train services in Great Britain

[Dave F via Talk-transit]

As others have said, this data doesn't really belong in OSM.
It's too transient, too complicated to maintain.

GB timetables are officially updated every 6 months, but services vary 
on an ad-hoc basis. This previous year being a good example. How 
detailed would your system be? Would you adjust it to the level of 
maintenance closures &  rail replacement services?


We don't even a valid database for buses. The Naptan import was poorly 
executed & even more poorly maintained. There are currently over 15000 
without highway=bus_stop tags.


The bus route relations are so poor Traveline/Travel West don't use them

Maybe it's best using your OSM time to improve & complete what is 
already in the OSM database.


DaveF

On 31/05/2021 22:18, Michael Tsang wrote:

On Monday, 31 May 2021 16:14:47 BST Roger Slevin wrote:

and one in which I agree with Tony, Mark and Peter in saying that public
transport services and timetables don’t appear to me to have a valid place
in OSM

We have already mapped the complete bus networks in certain cities. In OSM
terms, a public transport route is defined as "the order where the service
stops to carry passengers, and the path where it transverse on". It does not
include the timetable data.

I have also mapped a lot of bus and train routes in different cities as well,
and it is very useful for OSM to have bus and train routes. When I travel to a
new city I use OsmAnd a lot to find which bus I need to take to go to a certain
direction, and where it will stop.

The problem with GB railways is that each departure serves completely different
stops, which means, if we strictly follow the "one variant = one relation"
model as in current PTv2 schema, we have to map each departure as distinct
relations on the map, because each departure serves different stops, which mean
they are different variants.

Michael


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