Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Still feeling that cardinal directions only belong as roles in for child relations in super-relations. On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. There was some discussion in the original relation editor enhancement ticket: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5109#comment:42 where Petr_Dlouhy dismisses support for these member roles. I want to reopen that discussion and see if there is support for treating north/south and east/west as first class citizens similar to forward/backward in the relation editor (and perhaps in other parts, perhaps the validator and way direction reversing code?). I am crossposting to talk-us because this discussion is going on there at the moment. I would be more than happy to put in some of the work required to implement this support. Thanks, Martijn -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Martijn I'm good with having a separate discussion of milepoints/*pointes kilometriques, *sure. I'll probably wait a week or two until a consensus emerges on posted directionality, as you suggest. Peter On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: Peter, I think we should separate the discussion related to linear referencing / mileposts from the cardinal direction discussion - these are two different things really, to my mind. The notion of cardinal direction is a relatively straightforward one, and that is already cause for (cultural) confusion. Introducing the GIS concept of linear referencing into this discussion I think adds to the confusion. We should perhaps discuss that separately - I for one don't see the immediate relation between the two, but I am happy to be proven wrong. On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Peter Davies peter.dav...@crc-corp.com wrote: Martijn I, too, await your clarification for KristenK, as I'm a little confused too. We need to keep in mind that positive and negative GIS Linear Reference directions (which are handy as global solutions applying everywhere in the US at least) beginning at milepoint 0.0, usually on the southern or western state boundary for rectangular states, are not the same as posted DOT miles that sit on green and white pressed steel signs on the shoulder of all Interstates and many state/US routes. DOT miles often jump and can occasionally change directions, as route designators are altered (something that happens quite often) and bypasses are built. The cost of reporting the whole route is usually prohibitive. So GIS LRS positive and (imperfect) posted DOT miles are handy things to keep in mind as long as we realize that there are always a few exceptions to break our defaults. Similarly, posted cardinal directions are fairly rules-bound but certainly not 100%. This is why I think a good OSM solution needs to be explicit rather than implicitly inferred from highway geometry. Examples of state GIS definitive records are built by ESRI Roads and highways (used in Indiana) and by Agile Assets (used in Idaho). Check out http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/extensions/roads-and-highways Peter On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Kristen Kam krist...@telenav.com wrote: Martijn, I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to convey to the group. Are you saying that If a way has a member role value of east then east will mean forward and then west (it's opposite) would mean backward? Example logic: ** If member role = east, node direction is eastbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'west' ** If member role = west, node direction is westbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'east' ** If member role = north, node direction is northbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'south' ** If member role = south, node direction is southbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'north' If the logic I stated above successfully captured with your suggestion, then I would like to expand on it. Why not just make the cardinal direction value-forward/backward value relationship a bit more simpler? I would like to cite Peter Davies' discussion on the Highway Directions in the US wiki page. He stated that milepoints increase as highways that trend northward or eastward--say positive direction. So if one is traveling south or west on a highway, the milepoints are decreasing--say negative direction. With this in mind, couldn't we just say that north/east = forward (forward movement is positive!) and west/south=backward (backward movement is negative!)? If we're digitizing our edges, the suggestion would be to set the node direction of two-way, aka single-carriageway roads, into a positive direction and the member roles values to north or east. Basically what you did for http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2308411, but setting the single-carriageway/two-way roads to 'east' instead of 'west'. Thoughts Martijn? Others?? Best, Kristen --- OSM Profile → http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/KristenK -Original Message- From: Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:47 PM To: Ian Dees Cc: Florian Lohoff; OpenStreetMap-Josm MailConf; OSM US Talk Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Other examples of weird route designators include Arizona's Loop 101 and Loop 202 freeways in Maricopa County (Greater Phoenix). They are state highways, 100% freeways (probably), one around metro PHX and the other around the East Valley (Tempe/Mesa etc.). Like James I think that the route designator and the directionality are two completely different things. So I would imagine Loop 101 in the way ref and directionality in the relation role. Sadly although I live there half the time I can't recall how the loops are directionally posted right now, but I can take a look later next week. Peter On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 8:44 PM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.comwrote: However, with the split Interstates (I-35W/I-35E in both TX and MN I-69E/I-69C/I-69W in TX) US Highways (and a few state highways), the letters are part of the route number. So, they wouldn't have any effect on the role part for relations. When given routing info, they'd act just like their non-lettered siblings. Turn left onto Northbound I-35E on-ramp or something similar. Also, I don't know why some people put the letter as a modifier in some of the relations[1]. Maybe we could also remove that line (since the ref line has the proper number still) when we convert everything to the cardinal directions. -James [1] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/416519 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 22:22:47 -0500 From: saiarcot...@gmail.com To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward The same applies for I-35 in the DFW area; I-35E runs through Dallas while I-35W runs through Fort Worth. Saikrishna Arcot On Wed 27 Nov 2013 03:56:51 PM EST, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/27/13 2:46 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: You also have compass-point letters used to distinguish between branches of the same route. For example, US 31 runs north/south. A portion of it branches off as US 31W, which runs roughly parallel, some miles westward of US 31, and eventually merges back into it. in the Hudson Valley of NY, we have US 9/US 9W, which behave similarly; 9 is on the east side of the river south of Albany, and 9W is on the west side. (on top of that, NYS has a thicket of state routes which are spurs and loops off of 9/9W, e.g. NY 9A, 9B, ... 9H, 9J... mapping in NY is fun. whee!) richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
We at Castle Rock Associates and our client Mn/DOT agree that I-35W is the route designator (ref on the way in OSM). Peter Davies Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:44:09 To: Saikrishna Arcotsaiarcot...@gmail.com; OSM US Talktalk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
I should add that in OSM, I-35W is written I 35W, without the dash. I-35 splits into I-35W and I-35E in MSP (MN) as well as in DFW (TX). Mn/DOT is the Minnesota Dept of Transportation. Peter Davies Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: peter.dav...@crc-corp.com Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 12:00:55 To: James Mastrickmastfa...@hotmail.com; Saikrishna Arcotsaiarcot...@gmail.com; OSM US Talktalk-us@openstreetmap.org Reply-To: peter.dav...@crc-corp.com Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward We at Castle Rock Associates and our client Mn/DOT agree that I-35W is the route designator (ref on the way in OSM). Peter Davies Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:44:09 To: Saikrishna Arcotsaiarcot...@gmail.com; OSM US Talktalk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Hi Florian, It's more like a designation than a destination, so I think the destination tag would not be very appropriate for this. An Interstate has a cardinal direction, and when giving directions you would say for example 'enter Interstate 80 west'. On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:46:47PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. I still dont get it - Which relation would need this as a role? If this is a signposted destination i would expect it in the destination or destination:lane tag on the road as west e.g. destination:lanes=West;Los Angeles|East;Boston For example Mapfactor Navigator will use this to show destinations. backward/forward as role are in relation to the ways direction. A tag can either have a meaning in forward or backward or both directions on a way. There is no way a tag has a meaning in 56° left of the way. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQIVAwUBUpWbWZDdQSDLCfIvAQhY8w/9FskAH+at4ET9dCpGAxZ6pIAfRUre9LmV q95AMRW+s83yMrm4ztIDAxsvpc/VaMagly+b6XnoLFFkv7x6KH546Babw/RphFbw uspFpY+JSkEbY2BGmz4DAH7jAhmYWPDpLvoHXf9oCMUWoWUONygMqppXFdGgkBbL 4/YZSmKleIbVhoCtQsfzCDhHCsvV2NaM9JjCUClGAMgZF2TNmqY7jhEiqA8AQxNV 5skaECB08Ay/3kO22+T6Zk6mV3uTYIq7v+nbG++MCeS0XcHz1AHrTvXo5bYtIKRU qBDXkhvlLtrSICW1W4ML6+jWSv8s4d1Rvkx5GesAIB9+o6GAE2NMpcZCopl6pe9F GrXLk+rAqUMMVLEBp6rV4zq2cpaQ3ZUwLKaSmS9hWbfijpxT2hKLYcXLeYOVm0GC EEtRxziPQPM4J1a2g1SMqEwPL40XFnj/O21hCzNAMoRMyRwRwkHB8p+WxssP8tAu YpzJuWosMX3ZVdDehVb4PSqSNSUH2KXk6uS7vQzIPNQp52s1gCl9HplzC9pUqbQ3 BAOKmPmoJJVMSziNRMhAnnHT7NwxgQg3dDDC8QXkZ58h8n6WCBTcSLgMhW7Ctd3f 7SJ3Zbp6BQHU4oV/bN6MSh/JsQshuvosnPzsDvaBxYChQjmRuxfSmPMDmgtRC91z fbRRKUaWVIo= =51kM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Peter, I think we should separate the discussion related to linear referencing / mileposts from the cardinal direction discussion - these are two different things really, to my mind. The notion of cardinal direction is a relatively straightforward one, and that is already cause for (cultural) confusion. Introducing the GIS concept of linear referencing into this discussion I think adds to the confusion. We should perhaps discuss that separately - I for one don't see the immediate relation between the two, but I am happy to be proven wrong. On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Peter Davies peter.dav...@crc-corp.com wrote: Martijn I, too, await your clarification for KristenK, as I'm a little confused too. We need to keep in mind that positive and negative GIS Linear Reference directions (which are handy as global solutions applying everywhere in the US at least) beginning at milepoint 0.0, usually on the southern or western state boundary for rectangular states, are not the same as posted DOT miles that sit on green and white pressed steel signs on the shoulder of all Interstates and many state/US routes. DOT miles often jump and can occasionally change directions, as route designators are altered (something that happens quite often) and bypasses are built. The cost of reporting the whole route is usually prohibitive. So GIS LRS positive and (imperfect) posted DOT miles are handy things to keep in mind as long as we realize that there are always a few exceptions to break our defaults. Similarly, posted cardinal directions are fairly rules-bound but certainly not 100%. This is why I think a good OSM solution needs to be explicit rather than implicitly inferred from highway geometry. Examples of state GIS definitive records are built by ESRI Roads and highways (used in Indiana) and by Agile Assets (used in Idaho). Check out http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/extensions/roads-and-highways Peter On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Kristen Kam krist...@telenav.com wrote: Martijn, I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to convey to the group. Are you saying that If a way has a member role value of east then east will mean forward and then west (it's opposite) would mean backward? Example logic: ** If member role = east, node direction is eastbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'west' ** If member role = west, node direction is westbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'east' ** If member role = north, node direction is northbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'south' ** If member role = south, node direction is southbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'north' If the logic I stated above successfully captured with your suggestion, then I would like to expand on it. Why not just make the cardinal direction value-forward/backward value relationship a bit more simpler? I would like to cite Peter Davies' discussion on the Highway Directions in the US wiki page. He stated that milepoints increase as highways that trend northward or eastward--say positive direction. So if one is traveling south or west on a highway, the milepoints are decreasing--say negative direction. With this in mind, couldn't we just say that north/east = forward (forward movement is positive!) and west/south=backward (backward movement is negative!)? If we're digitizing our edges, the suggestion would be to set the node direction of two-way, aka single-carriageway roads, into a positive direction and the member roles values to north or east. Basically what you did for http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2308411, but setting the single-carriageway/two-way roads to 'east' instead of 'west'. Thoughts Martijn? Others?? Best, Kristen --- OSM Profile → http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/KristenK -Original Message- From: Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:47 PM To: Ian Dees Cc: Florian Lohoff; OpenStreetMap-Josm MailConf; OSM US Talk Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 4:24 AM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: For example, imagine I'm near 2 ways that are both part of the I-80[1]. For simplicity let's assume that the way that I would take to get to eastbound destinations actually goes in an eastbound direction at my location. If it's important to recognise that there are two signed I-80 routes, one eastbound and one westbound, shouldn't there actually be two I-80 relations? The eastboundness is really a property of the route, rather than the individual way. -josm-dev, adding talk-us That's a great point, Andy. We have considered this and it's an elegant solution. Just off the top of my head there's three considerations that make this a less desirable option: 1) Some routes actually change signposted cardinal directions (examples are some beltways) which would make for convoluted relation hierarchies. 2) You would need to duplicate relations for single-carriageway numbered routes. 3) The member role approach is already widely established in the U.S. Point 2) could be taken care of if we would make sure the member ways all point in the same direction and just assign the signposted cardinal direction to match the way direction, and infer the opposite cardinal direction. -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Martijn I, too, await your clarification for KristenK, as I'm a little confused too. We need to keep in mind that positive and negative GIS Linear Reference directions (which are handy as global solutions applying everywhere in the US at least) beginning at milepoint 0.0, usually on the southern or western state boundary for rectangular states, are not the same as posted DOT miles that sit on green and white pressed steel signs on the shoulder of all Interstates and many state/US routes. DOT miles often jump and can occasionally change directions, as route designators are altered (something that happens quite often) and bypasses are built. The cost of reporting the whole route is usually prohibitive. So GIS LRS positive and (imperfect) posted DOT miles are handy things to keep in mind as long as we realize that there are always a few exceptions to break our defaults. Similarly, posted cardinal directions are fairly rules-bound but certainly not 100%. This is why I think a good OSM solution needs to be explicit rather than implicitly inferred from highway geometry. Examples of state GIS definitive records are built by ESRI Roads and highways (used in Indiana) and by Agile Assets (used in Idaho). Check out http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/extensions/roads-and-highways Peter On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Kristen Kam krist...@telenav.com wrote: Martijn, I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to convey to the group. Are you saying that If a way has a member role value of east then east will mean forward and then west (it's opposite) would mean backward? Example logic: ** If member role = east, node direction is eastbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'west' ** If member role = west, node direction is westbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'east' ** If member role = north, node direction is northbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'south' ** If member role = south, node direction is southbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'north' If the logic I stated above successfully captured with your suggestion, then I would like to expand on it. Why not just make the cardinal direction value-forward/backward value relationship a bit more simpler? I would like to cite Peter Davies' discussion on the Highway Directions in the US wiki page. He stated that milepoints increase as highways that trend northward or eastward--say positive direction. So if one is traveling south or west on a highway, the milepoints are decreasing--say negative direction. With this in mind, couldn't we just say that north/east = forward (forward movement is positive!) and west/south=backward (backward movement is negative!)? If we're digitizing our edges, the suggestion would be to set the node direction of two-way, aka single-carriageway roads, into a positive direction and the member roles values to north or east. Basically what you did for http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2308411, but setting the single-carriageway/two-way roads to 'east' instead of 'west'. Thoughts Martijn? Others?? Best, Kristen --- OSM Profile → http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/KristenK -Original Message- From: Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:47 PM To: Ian Dees Cc: Florian Lohoff; OpenStreetMap-Josm MailConf; OSM US Talk Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. Hope this clarifies somewhat! Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
When I typed The cost of reporting the whole route is usually prohibitive. below I meant The cost of reposting the whole route is usually prohibitive. By posting I mean signing. Peter Davies, Castle Rock On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Peter Davies peter.dav...@crc-corp.comwrote: Martijn I, too, await your clarification for KristenK, as I'm a little confused too. We need to keep in mind that positive and negative GIS Linear Reference directions (which are handy as global solutions applying everywhere in the US at least) beginning at milepoint 0.0, usually on the southern or western state boundary for rectangular states, are not the same as posted DOT miles that sit on green and white pressed steel signs on the shoulder of all Interstates and many state/US routes. DOT miles often jump and can occasionally change directions, as route designators are altered (something that happens quite often) and bypasses are built. The cost of reporting the whole route is usually prohibitive. So GIS LRS positive and (imperfect) posted DOT miles are handy things to keep in mind as long as we realize that there are always a few exceptions to break our defaults. Similarly, posted cardinal directions are fairly rules-bound but certainly not 100%. This is why I think a good OSM solution needs to be explicit rather than implicitly inferred from highway geometry. Examples of state GIS definitive records are built by ESRI Roads and highways (used in Indiana) and by Agile Assets (used in Idaho). Check out http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/extensions/roads-and-highways Peter On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Kristen Kam krist...@telenav.com wrote: Martijn, I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to convey to the group. Are you saying that If a way has a member role value of east then east will mean forward and then west (it's opposite) would mean backward? Example logic: ** If member role = east, node direction is eastbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'west' ** If member role = west, node direction is westbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'east' ** If member role = north, node direction is northbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'south' ** If member role = south, node direction is southbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'north' If the logic I stated above successfully captured with your suggestion, then I would like to expand on it. Why not just make the cardinal direction value-forward/backward value relationship a bit more simpler? I would like to cite Peter Davies' discussion on the Highway Directions in the US wiki page. He stated that milepoints increase as highways that trend northward or eastward--say positive direction. So if one is traveling south or west on a highway, the milepoints are decreasing--say negative direction. With this in mind, couldn't we just say that north/east = forward (forward movement is positive!) and west/south=backward (backward movement is negative!)? If we're digitizing our edges, the suggestion would be to set the node direction of two-way, aka single-carriageway roads, into a positive direction and the member roles values to north or east. Basically what you did for http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2308411, but setting the single-carriageway/two-way roads to 'east' instead of 'west'. Thoughts Martijn? Others?? Best, Kristen --- OSM Profile → http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/KristenK -Original Message- From: Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:47 PM To: Ian Dees Cc: Florian Lohoff; OpenStreetMap-Josm MailConf; OSM US Talk Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. Hope this clarifies somewhat! Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: On Tue, November 26, 2013 1:57 pm, Ian Dees wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. I would be very careful in using this. Is this really south e.g. 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are only rough directions. Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers to process and interpret data. No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 Perhaps images like these, found nearly at random on the web, will illustrate typical motorway and highway marking in the US. http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4030/5145458837_d192798a62_o.jpg http://www.interstate80.info/i80_nevada_lettsign.jpg Road directionality is based on the total length of the highway. So if the interstate (motorway) is 3000km long and generally more east/west than north/south it will have east/west markings on it even in areas where it is going north/south or even reversing itself for a short distance and going west/east. Marking the directionality in the relation would make it easier for creating navigation instructions that match what the driver sees on the ground (e.g. turn left on to ramp for I-10 west). Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Adding to the confusion, you have two conflicting schemes in use in the USA. The Interstate highways are referred to as East/West/North/South according to the direction a particular side of the highway is going, so that I-40 W and I-40 E are opposing sides of a divided highway. You also have compass-point letters used to distinguish between branches of the same route. For example, US 31 runs north/south. A portion of it branches off as US 31W, which runs roughly parallel, some miles westward of US 31, and eventually merges back into it. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On 11/27/13 2:46 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: You also have compass-point letters used to distinguish between branches of the same route. For example, US 31 runs north/south. A portion of it branches off as US 31W, which runs roughly parallel, some miles westward of US 31, and eventually merges back into it. in the Hudson Valley of NY, we have US 9/US 9W, which behave similarly; 9 is on the east side of the river south of Albany, and 9W is on the west side. (on top of that, NYS has a thicket of state routes which are spurs and loops off of 9/9W, e.g. NY 9A, 9B, ... 9H, 9J... mapping in NY is fun. whee!) richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
The same applies for I-35 in the DFW area; I-35E runs through Dallas while I-35W runs through Fort Worth. Saikrishna Arcot On Wed 27 Nov 2013 03:56:51 PM EST, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/27/13 2:46 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: You also have compass-point letters used to distinguish between branches of the same route. For example, US 31 runs north/south. A portion of it branches off as US 31W, which runs roughly parallel, some miles westward of US 31, and eventually merges back into it. in the Hudson Valley of NY, we have US 9/US 9W, which behave similarly; 9 is on the east side of the river south of Albany, and 9W is on the west side. (on top of that, NYS has a thicket of state routes which are spurs and loops off of 9/9W, e.g. NY 9A, 9B, ... 9H, 9J... mapping in NY is fun. whee!) richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
However, with the split Interstates (I-35W/I-35E in both TX and MN I-69E/I-69C/I-69W in TX) US Highways (and a few state highways), the letters are part of the route number. So, they wouldn't have any effect on the role part for relations. When given routing info, they'd act just like their non-lettered siblings. Turn left onto Northbound I-35E on-ramp or something similar. Also, I don't know why some people put the letter as a modifier in some of the relations[1]. Maybe we could also remove that line (since the ref line has the proper number still) when we convert everything to the cardinal directions. -James [1] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/416519 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 22:22:47 -0500 From: saiarcot...@gmail.com To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward The same applies for I-35 in the DFW area; I-35E runs through Dallas while I-35W runs through Fort Worth. Saikrishna Arcot On Wed 27 Nov 2013 03:56:51 PM EST, Richard Welty wrote: On 11/27/13 2:46 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: You also have compass-point letters used to distinguish between branches of the same route. For example, US 31 runs north/south. A portion of it branches off as US 31W, which runs roughly parallel, some miles westward of US 31, and eventually merges back into it. in the Hudson Valley of NY, we have US 9/US 9W, which behave similarly; 9 is on the east side of the river south of Albany, and 9W is on the west side. (on top of that, NYS has a thicket of state routes which are spurs and loops off of 9/9W, e.g. NY 9A, 9B, ... 9H, 9J... mapping in NY is fun. whee!) richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. I would be very careful in using this. Is this really south e.g. 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are only rough directions. Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers to process and interpret data. No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
On Tue, November 26, 2013 1:57 pm, Ian Dees wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. I would be very careful in using this. Is this really south e.g. 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are only rough directions. Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers to process and interpret data. No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 Perhaps images like these, found nearly at random on the web, will illustrate typical motorway and highway marking in the US. http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4030/5145458837_d192798a62_o.jpg http://www.interstate80.info/i80_nevada_lettsign.jpg Road directionality is based on the total length of the highway. So if the interstate (motorway) is 3000km long and generally more east/west than north/south it will have east/west markings on it even in areas where it is going north/south or even reversing itself for a short distance and going west/east. Marking the directionality in the relation would make it easier for creating navigation instructions that match what the driver sees on the ground (e.g. turn left on to ramp for I-10 west). Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
From: Florian Lohoff [mailto:f...@zz.de] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:57:40PM -0600, Ian Dees wrote: No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 So - North would be straight on, east would be left, west would be right in 99% of the other countries? You'd have to ask someone with those other countries. That particular way is part of the I-94 with role west, and you'd tell someone to get on the I-94 west, even if they're physically driving north. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. Hope this clarifies somewhat! Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. I would be very careful in using this. Is this really south e.g. 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are only rough directions. Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers to process and interpret data. No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward
Martijn, I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to convey to the group. Are you saying that If a way has a member role value of east then east will mean forward and then west (it's opposite) would mean backward? Example logic: ** If member role = east, node direction is eastbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'west' ** If member role = west, node direction is westbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'east' ** If member role = north, node direction is northbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'south' ** If member role = south, node direction is southbound would mean forward and backward would mean 'north' If the logic I stated above successfully captured with your suggestion, then I would like to expand on it. Why not just make the cardinal direction value-forward/backward value relationship a bit more simpler? I would like to cite Peter Davies' discussion on the Highway Directions in the US wiki page. He stated that milepoints increase as highways that trend northward or eastward--say positive direction. So if one is traveling south or west on a highway, the milepoints are decreasing--say negative direction. With this in mind, couldn't we just say that north/east = forward (forward movement is positive!) and west/south=backward (backward movement is negative!)? If we're digitizing our edges, the suggestion would be to set the node direction of two-way, aka single-carriageway roads, into a positive direction and the member roles values to north or east. Basically what you did for http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2308411, but setting the single-carriageway/two-way roads to 'east' instead of 'west'. Thoughts Martijn? Others?? Best, Kristen --- OSM Profile → http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/KristenK -Original Message- From: Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:47 PM To: Ian Dees Cc: Florian Lohoff; OpenStreetMap-Josm MailConf; OSM US Talk Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward Yes, sorry for not being clearer. As Ian indicates, this is the *signposted cardinal direction* of a numbered road route, which does not change with the actual compass direction of the road. The guiding principle for the United States is that the odd numbered Interstates are north/south, and the even numbered Interstates are east/west. This is independent from the local compass direction. So for example, I-80 is east-west, but runs almost north-south locally (for example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/203317481) but the sign would still say 'I-80 East' (or West as the case may be). So the relation between the east--west and north--south member roles is equivalent to the relation between forward--backward. Because the cardinal direction is commonly included on the road signs (see example http://www.aaroads.com/west/new_mexico010/bl-010_eb_at_i-010.jpg) this information is useful in the U.S. (and Canadian) context as a drop in replacement for the traditional forward / backward role members. Hope this clarifies somewhat! Martijn On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote: Hi all, I'm new to this list so please bear with me. The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and 'backward' roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they are officially signposted. I would be very careful in using this. Is this really south e.g. 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ? Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are only rough directions. Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data Consumers to process and interpret data. No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of the road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going west, but a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were pointing north: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612 -- Martijn van Exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ http://openstreetmap.us/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
