Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Yves]

Any contributor interested in these Netto shops can edit the name, add an 
operator tag or else to distinguish them. 
If they are not interested or do not know better, then the should not do 
anything. 
If they are interested but not contributors, they can contribute. 
Yves 


Le 3 octobre 2017 12:46:10 GMT+02:00, Michael Reichert  
a écrit :
>Hi Andy,
>
>Am 2017-09-27 um 17:57 schrieb Andy Townsend:
>> On 27/09/2017 15:35, John F. Eldredge wrote:
>>> The spatial information will tell you where each business location
>is;
>>> it is not sufficient to tell you whether these are multiple
>locations
>>> of the same brand, or two unrelated brands that share the same name
>>> and category of business.
>> 
>> Can anyone think of an example where two unrelated brands share the
>same
>> name and category of business in the same geographical area?
>
>Netto in Germany. Both companies have shops in some German states.
>Officially, one of them is called "Netto Marken-Discount" and the other
>one just "Netto". But people call them both "Netto" and there are
>multiple towns and cities which have both Netto and Netto shops.
>Because
>you cannot expect any OSM mapper to add more than name=* and
>shop=supermarket, you cannot decided without additional sources which
>brand a Netto supermarket belongs to.
>
>Best regards
>
>Michael
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Andy,

Am 2017-09-27 um 17:57 schrieb Andy Townsend:
> On 27/09/2017 15:35, John F. Eldredge wrote:
>> The spatial information will tell you where each business location is;
>> it is not sufficient to tell you whether these are multiple locations
>> of the same brand, or two unrelated brands that share the same name
>> and category of business.
> 
> Can anyone think of an example where two unrelated brands share the same
> name and category of business in the same geographical area?

Netto in Germany. Both companies have shops in some German states.
Officially, one of them is called "Netto Marken-Discount" and the other
one just "Netto". But people call them both "Netto" and there are
multiple towns and cities which have both Netto and Netto shops. Because
you cannot expect any OSM mapper to add more than name=* and
shop=supermarket, you cannot decided without additional sources which
brand a Netto supermarket belongs to.

Best regards

Michael

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Jo]

 If we would have stable ids, then this 'problem' could be resolved by
adding the foreign keys to our objects to Wikidata, which is their normal
way of operating.

It took me a few messages to explain to the Wikidata contributors that we
don't have stable ids and that the best way forward was to add links to
Wikidata on our side.

Are you all saying this was incorrect? Do you have a better solution?
Stating that foreign keys shouldn't be in OSM at all is not very helpful.

Some examples of what can be achieved with references made to wikidata:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuven#External_links
I created some lua code, which generates the following Overpass Query:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/s1Z

All OSM objects with a name (in several languages) referring to a city.
More zoomed in:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/s20

I did the same for some persons. Of course it took me a while to filter
(manually) the OSM objects to know for which ones the
name:etymology:wikidata key was correct.

Some referred to Leuvenheim for example. It is not trivial to find all
these objects, if the reference to wikidata would be missing in our data.

The same goes for names of kings and queens as their names got 'recycled' a
lot. Princes and princesses named after their grandparents.

Anyway, I think a case can be made for including references to wikidata in
OSM and as coverage becomes more and more complete, more interesting
queries become a possibility. Of course just like constant improvements
need to be made to the geographic component of our data, the meta data also
needs maintenance. Some will say it's futile, others will say it's
interesting to create these sorts of links.

Polyglot

2017-09-28 1:36 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 27/09/2017 19:47, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
>>
>> Is "the same geographical area" relevant ? Why should a data consumer
>> use a separate datebase to identify the brand of an item ?
>>
>
> Simply because some people had suggested that "brand:wikidata" was
> unnecessary because you could always work out what brand a name was by
> location, and some people had suggested that it was necessary because you
> couldn't - it was just an attempt to find a concrete example; not an
> attempt to prove a point either way.
>
> Of course this is unrelated to whether or not wikidata/wikipedia/any other
> foreign key belongs in OSM (as discussed at length elsewhere).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Andy Townsend]

On 27/09/2017 19:47, Marc Gemis wrote:


Is "the same geographical area" relevant ? Why should a data consumer
use a separate datebase to identify the brand of an item ?


Simply because some people had suggested that "brand:wikidata" was 
unnecessary because you could always work out what brand a name was by 
location, and some people had suggested that it was necessary because 
you couldn't - it was just an attempt to find a concrete example; not an 
attempt to prove a point either way.


Of course this is unrelated to whether or not wikidata/wikipedia/any 
other foreign key belongs in OSM (as discussed at length elsewhere).


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Sep 2017, at 23:09, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> 
> Martin, that specific Wikidata item may have some, possibly incomplete data, 
> that can be easily fixed, but that's irrelevant. As I keep saying - the 
> wikidata and wikipedia tags are no different - both point to the same article 
> in Wikipedia.


I think there’s a fundamental difference: when I link a wikipedia article I 
will take a look at the specific article in the specific language and then link 
it. When I link a wikidata item I will look at the properties of this item and 
then link it. I will not read all linked wikipedia articles in all languages, 
and from my experience (looking only at 3 languages) the wikipedia articles in 
different languages differ _a lot_. There are much more often than you‘d 
probably expect articles dealing with different things interlinked. And 
articles dealing with somehow the same subject still differ a lot, in all 
regards, what they cover, what is included (and what is in a different 
article), etc.

Yes, most wikipedia articles point to wikidata objects and most WD obj point to 
WP articles, but this doesn’t mean you can blindly assume they are telling the 
same story/containing the same content.

The stability issues exist in Wikidata as they do in Wikipedia, just on a 
different level: wikipedia articles might get merged, renamed or deleted (and 
you can mostly see this because your link will be dead), but wikidata objects 
change as well (classes (instance of) change, new properties get added, others 
are removed or their meaning changes, etc.)

Yes, it might be possible to fix (sync) everything, but there aren’t enough 
people actually doing it, and it is much easier to create hard to detect new 
problems by changing existing items „with a click“. And because everything is 
linked, it is also impossible to overlook the incredible complexity (unlike 
wikipedia, where an article can be modified a lot but still will tell a similar 
story or the edit will typically get reverted, or it was wrong before).

Maybe it’s really and mostly just an issue of too few people verifying and 
editing Wikidata (e.g. if more properties and other information would be added 
to a WD object, people could easier recognize when the link of the WP article 
in their language is pointing to the wrong object, but it just doesn’t seem to 
happen in reality: WD said for years that human settlements were administrative 
territorial entities, and it was only corrected after it was mentioned here.
It still says a human settlement is a subclass of a geographical point, looking 
at the geographical point object I learnt this is: „point or an area on the 
Earth's surface or elsewhere“ (btw: it’s also a „part of“ (object of which the 
subject is a part.) Earth’s surface, which seems inconsistent as „elsewhere“ is 
not part of Earth‘s surface). Now the settlement is at the same time („all 
instances of these items are instances of those items“) also a subclass of a 
„geographic region“, but the region is „different from“ („item that is 
different from another item, but they are often confused
is notnot to be confused withdistinct fromnot the same asnotisn'tdistinguished 
fromdifferent thansee alsodisambiguated fromnot same as“) a geographical point.

Which contradictions can be ignored and which should be fixed?

cheers,
Martin 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Yuri Astrakhan]

>
> > Specifying Q125054 is the same as specifying "Aldi". If needed/wanted,
> it could be replaced with the more specific wikidata entry like Aldi Nord.
>
> no, it’s not the same, because this wikidata object suggests that there is
> one company, Aldi GmbH & Co. KG, with 2 seats, and one logo.
> Specifying operator:wikipedia=en:Aldi would be similar to specifying
> operator=Aldi and it would be much more precise, because it tells you
> there’s 2 chains of this name, and they are not “supermarkets” but discount
> supermarkets which is very different.
>

Martin, that specific Wikidata item may have some, possibly incomplete
data, that can be easily fixed, but that's irrelevant. As I keep saying -
the wikidata and wikipedia tags are no different - both point to the same
article in Wikipedia. if you want, think of Wikidata as the redirect system
with stable IDs. We don't mind storing "website" with arbitrary URL, why
not store wikipedia with a stable URL?  operator:wikipedia=en:Aldi is bad
simply because it "en:Aldi" is frequently renamed. The wikidata tag can
easily be shown as text by all the tools (some already do). I feel like we
are going the 2nd or 3rd circle by now.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Sep 2017, at 22:04, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> 
> Martin, you cannot make a general claim based on a single value. 


I didn’t make a general claim based on this, I said it’s another example. 



> Specifying Q125054 is the same as specifying "Aldi". If needed/wanted, it 
> could be replaced with the more specific wikidata entry like Aldi Nord.


no, it’s not the same, because this wikidata object suggests that there is one 
company, Aldi GmbH & Co. KG, with 2 seats, and one logo. 
Specifying operator:wikipedia=en:Aldi would be similar to specifying 
operator=Aldi and it would be much more precise, because it tells you there’s 2 
chains of this name, and they are not “supermarkets” but discount supermarkets 
which is very different.


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 27. Sep 2017, at 21:58, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

>>> the only wikidata example I can
>>> find is https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25716765
> 
>> which btw. is another good example of misleading and wrong information via
>> wikidata.
> 
> No, it's an example of wrong data in OSM. Albeit on a single object:
> way/25716765


really? So how could we fix it without modifying wikidata?

cheers,
Martin


PS: Ironically, someone using a Pink Floyd related nick just has created an 
item “Aldi brew” (Sud)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Yuri Astrakhan]

That's exactly what we are trying to do.  Add another tag --
brand:wikidata=Q550258

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 4:10 PM, yvecai  wrote:

> Excuse me, but what does wikidata do in this discussion ?
> If brand=wendy is different tham brand=wendy, and if somebody has a
> problem with is it, why not change the key, values or add another tag,
> document it and voila ?
> Yves
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[yvecai]

Excuse me, but what does wikidata do in this discussion ?
If brand=wendy is different tham brand=wendy, and if somebody has a 
problem with is it, why not change the key, values or add another tag, 
document it and voila ?

Yves

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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Martin, you cannot make a general claim based on a single value.  Users can
enter "Aldi", or "Aldi Nord" or "Aldi Sud". With different capitalization
and dashes, and with or without dots, and god knows what other creative
ways to misspell it. Specifying Q125054 is the same as specifying "Aldi".
If needed/wanted, it could be replaced with the more specific wikidata
entry like Aldi Nord.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 27. Sep 2017, at 17:57, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
> In Germany both Aldi Nord and Aldi Sud operate, but these tend to be
> tagged in OSM as operator rather than brand, and the only wikidata example
> I can find is https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25716765
>
>
>
>
> which btw. is another good example of misleading and wrong information via
> wikidata. There’s no indication that there are 2 groups of companies (Aldi
> nord and süd) each of which consisting of many companies, instead it seems
> Aldi is one single company “GmbH & Co. KG” (property legal form). There’s
> not even the full name, nor a vatin. It also suggests that the aldi nord
> logo is the logo for this aldi süd instance.
>
>
> If you tag operator=Aldi Süd there’s no problem, but if you tag
> operator:wikidata=
> Q125054
> you introduce errors and uncertainties.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Andy Mabbett]

On 27 September 2017 at 20:50, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:

> On 27. Sep 2017, at 17:57, Andy Townsend  wrote:

>> the only wikidata example I can
>> find is https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25716765

> which btw. is another good example of misleading and wrong information via
> wikidata.

No, it's an example of wrong data in OSM. Albeit on a single object:
way/25716765

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Sep 2017, at 17:57, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
> In Germany both Aldi Nord and Aldi Sud operate, but these tend to be tagged 
> in OSM as operator rather than brand, and the only wikidata example I can 
> find is https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25716765



which btw. is another good example of misleading and wrong information via 
wikidata. There’s no indication that there are 2 groups of companies (Aldi nord 
and süd) each of which consisting of many companies, instead it seems Aldi is 
one single company “GmbH & Co. KG” (property legal form). There’s not even the 
full name, nor a vatin. It also suggests that the aldi nord logo is the logo 
for this aldi süd instance.


If you tag operator=Aldi Süd there’s no problem, but if you tag 
operator:wikidata=
Q125054
you introduce errors and uncertainties.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Marc, I think you are confusing the goal and the means to get there.  I
agree - the goal is to be able to globally find all Wendy's, so that when I
travel, I still can search for familiar brands.  So the same brand should
have the same ID everywhere.  That ID can be either textual or numeric.
Both approaches have pros & cons.  The ID can be defined inside OSM - in
which case we must have a globally-coordinated effort to standardize and
document them - e.g. on a wiki, or we can use external IDs.  We already use
some external IDs like ISO-defined "USA" or "TX", but Wikidata is clearly a
much less standard, user-contributable system. I am not sure OSM community
should duplicate the effort of Wikipedia community to redefine concepts.
Look at "denomination" tag - OSM has a long list of values for it, but most
of them are links to Wikipedia.

Lastly, lets not confuse what we *store* (DB) and how we enter/display (UI)
a value.  Data consumers would value cross-referencable IDs much more. The
users on the other hand should see proper text, preferably with additional
things like company's logo.  Wikidata would allow you to show that logo,
and a company description in a dropdown. Text wouldn't.

P.S. Snackbar Wendy's should be in OSM, and judging by media and legal
attention, it should also be in Wikipedia, or at least in Wikidata (which
has much lower barrier of entry).  The searching for it is tricky
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goes#Fast_food

P.P.S. I applaud local Wendy's. I am not a big fan of having identical food
brands in every corner of the globe, but that's a personal taste preference

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> >
> > Can anyone think of an example where two unrelated brands share the same
> > name and category of business in the same geographical area?
>
> Is "the same geographical area" relevant ? Why should a data consumer
> use a separate datebase to identify the brand of an item ?
>
> Suppose I want to find all "Wendy's". Why do I need to know that the
> one in The Netherlands does not  belong to the brand found in the US ?
> [1] Shouldn't this be part of the OSM data in some way ?
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> [1] https://www.businessinsider.nl/een-zeeuw-noemde-zn-
> snackbar-wendys-naar-zn-dochter-en-weerstaat-de-gelijknamige-amerikaanse-
> fastfoodgigant/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Simon Poole]

Am 27.09.2017 um 20:47 schrieb Marc Gemis:
>> Can anyone think of an example where two unrelated brands share the same
>> name and category of business in the same geographical area?
> Is "the same geographical area" relevant ? Why should a data consumer
> use a separate datebase to identify the brand of an item ?
>
> Suppose I want to find all "Wendy's". Why do I need to know that the
> one in The Netherlands does not  belong to the brand found in the US ?
> [1] Shouldn't this be part of the OSM data in some way ?
No?

Both this example and (particularly) the ones given by Mark Wagner,
simply show that there in no way we can expect a "normal" mapper to
choose the right wikidata tag in the first place. It is more correct to
simply record that there is an establishment doing X using brand Y,
because -that- statement of fact isn't wrong.

And yes that probably means that the person querying for "Wendy's" needs
to know that he has to exclude NL, who else?

Simon

PS: particularly brand:wikipedia is rather low use and mainly points to
McDonald's 
> regards
>
> m
>
> [1] 
> https://www.businessinsider.nl/een-zeeuw-noemde-zn-snackbar-wendys-naar-zn-dochter-en-weerstaat-de-gelijknamige-amerikaanse-fastfoodgigant/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Marc Gemis]

>
> Can anyone think of an example where two unrelated brands share the same
> name and category of business in the same geographical area?

Is "the same geographical area" relevant ? Why should a data consumer
use a separate datebase to identify the brand of an item ?

Suppose I want to find all "Wendy's". Why do I need to know that the
one in The Netherlands does not  belong to the brand found in the US ?
[1] Shouldn't this be part of the OSM data in some way ?

regards

m

[1] 
https://www.businessinsider.nl/een-zeeuw-noemde-zn-snackbar-wendys-naar-zn-dochter-en-weerstaat-de-gelijknamige-amerikaanse-fastfoodgigant/

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[OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Andy Townsend]

On 27/09/2017 15:35, John F. Eldredge wrote:
The spatial information will tell you where each business location is; 
it is not sufficient to tell you whether these are multiple locations 
of the same brand, or two unrelated brands that share the same name 
and category of business.


Can anyone think of an example where two unrelated brands share the same 
name and category of business in the same geographical area?


The nearest I can think of in the UK is "Wilco Motorsave" and "Wilko" 
(some overlap of what they sell, but different spelling, and typically a 
different "shop" tag in OSM).  In Germany both Aldi Nord and Aldi Sud 
operate, but these tend to be tagged in OSM as operator rather than 
brand, and the only wikidata example I can find is 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25716765 (via 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/s10 , http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/s0Z didn't 
return anything).


Best Regards,

Andy


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