Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-23 Thread Brian Alsop
Have you considered WWVB? Works fine within structures. Even though the carrier today is phase modulated one can probably glean 1 ms accuracy from it or the data transmitted. Regards Brian On 7/23/2013 14:05, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 23/07/13 05:55, Jim Lux wrote: On 7/21/13 6:42 PM, Chri

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-23 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/22/13 6:30 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: For what it's worth, the application is a radar that detects buried victims in disaster rubble, so the data we are collecting is basically heartbeats and breathing. the "when was the data taken" is a "where were we when the data was collected" need. The "

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-23 Thread Tom Van Baak
> For what it's worth, the application is a radar that detects buried > victims in disaster rubble, so the data we are collecting is basically > heartbeats and breathing. the "when was the data taken" is a "where > were we when the data was collected" need. The "sync" requirement comes > from

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-23 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 23/07/13 05:55, Jim Lux wrote: On 7/21/13 6:42 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: I think the way to keep the sensors in sync is to use the same method they use to keep cell towers in sync. Basically each tower has a GPS receiver and also a good local oscillator. The GPS disciplines the oscillator an

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-23 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/23/13 4:51 AM, Scott McGrath wrote: Thanks Jim Was not aware that <10 Ghz signals could penetrate so deeply. I work for a enterprise wifi company on the RF side and one of our key challenges is signal attenuation/distortion by building materials Any pointers to papers on this? there's

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-23 Thread Scott McGrath
Thanks Jim Was not aware that <10 Ghz signals could penetrate so deeply. I work for a enterprise wifi company on the RF side and one of our key challenges is signal attenuation/distortion by building materials Any pointers to papers on this? I did know that /tvb was using seismic sensors but

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-22 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/22/13 10:39 AM, Scott McGrath wrote: Moles are a bit small it would probably work better for woodchucks. who are in the process of undermining all lawns in neighborhood now. In a more serious vein most ground penetrating radar is low frequency and I was not aware that THz waves could pen

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-22 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/22/13 5:48 AM, Scott McGrath wrote: You might want to look at what these guys have done for 40 years or so. Www.geophysical.com ground penetrating radar doesn't work very well in the typical disaster rubble enviroment which has uneven surfaces and a lot of random scattering in the medium

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-22 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/21/13 6:42 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: I think the way to keep the sensors in sync is to use the same method they use to keep cell towers in sync. Basically each tower has a GPS receiver and also a good local oscillator. The GPS disciplines the oscillator and the timing is taken from that o

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-22 Thread Scott McGrath
You might want to look at what these guys have done for 40 years or so. Www.geophysical.com They have the ability to embed GPS coordinates while recording. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 21, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Jim Lux wrote: > On 7/21/13 1:35 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: >>> when I'm in a GPS denied e

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-22 Thread Chris Albertson
I think the way to keep the sensors in sync is to use the same method they use to keep cell towers in sync. Basically each tower has a GPS receiver and also a good local oscillator. The GPS disciplines the oscillator and the timing is taken from that oscillator, not directly from the GPS. If the

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-22 Thread Scott McGrath
Moles are a bit small it would probably work better for woodchucks. who are in the process of undermining all lawns in neighborhood now. In a more serious vein most ground penetrating radar is low frequency and I was not aware that THz waves could penetrate ground more than a few CM Scott Sen

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-22 Thread brent evers
> > > Of course all this from the guy who once tried to use seismic sensors and > GPSDO to triangulate moles in his backyard... > > I don't recall seeing that on leapsecond.com... Sounds like something that could become an obsession that rivaled clocks in cost. I'm picturing Bill Murray and a Cad

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/21/13 1:35 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: when I'm in a GPS denied environment, it's not just because we're indoors, it's because we're somewhere that GPS isn't available, so what I'm really doing is providing a sort of flywheel to keep my little modules synced with each other. I don't need super

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread Tom Van Baak
> when I'm in a GPS denied environment, it's not just because we're > indoors, it's because we're somewhere that GPS isn't available, so what > I'm really doing is providing a sort of flywheel to keep my little > modules synced with each other. I don't need super accuracy in an > absolute sens

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/21/13 9:28 AM, David J Taylor wrote: From: Jim Lux [] Oh, I didn't actually think it would be 10% off.. more like a few ppm, depending on temperature. I was wondering more what would happen if you were indoors for a couple days, then went back out, what the box does. realistically, I don't

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread David J Taylor
From: Jim Lux [] Oh, I didn't actually think it would be 10% off.. more like a few ppm, depending on temperature. I was wondering more what would happen if you were indoors for a couple days, then went back out, what the box does. realistically, I don't expect that it smoothly brings it back into

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/21/13 6:59 AM, David J Taylor wrote: My own notes on the GPS-18 LVC are here: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/FreeBSD-GPS-PPS.htm You may be able to gather something about the electrical characteristics from that note - the device will happily feed to PC "RS-232" ports connected in parallel

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread Jim Lux
On 7/21/13 7:15 AM, David McGaw wrote: The GPS-18 does NOT output 1PPS until it acquires lock. Then the 1PPS stays on even if lock is lost, running from the internal crystal. I have not checked, but once it reacquires lock I presume it jumps to the correct second. All outputs including 1PPS ar

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread David McGaw
The GPS-18 does NOT output 1PPS until it acquires lock. Then the 1PPS stays on even if lock is lost, running from the internal crystal. I have not checked, but once it reacquires lock I presume it jumps to the correct second. All outputs including 1PPS are CMOS levels, so it drives both low

Re: [time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread David J Taylor
I don't have a GPS-18 in front of me, and I'm modifying some software remotely, and I ran across an issue that someone on this list probably knows off the top of their head. Does the GPS-18 put out 1pps pulses even if it hasn't got a fix yet? That is, when you apply power, does it just start putt

[time-nuts] GPS 18 behavior

2013-07-21 Thread Jim Lux
I don't have a GPS-18 in front of me, and I'm modifying some software remotely, and I ran across an issue that someone on this list probably knows off the top of their head. Does the GPS-18 put out 1pps pulses even if it hasn't got a fix yet? That is, when you apply power, does it just start p