Adults can say no (as indeed can non-adults), but consenting
adults are, by definition, adults who say yes. If they say no, they are
not consenting. Consenting, by definition, means saying yes.
James's statement ("any application which restricts PUA use is
effectively precluding consenting ad
> >This is another strawman argument isn't it? Nobody on this thread
> >has said they want monospaced alphanumerics.
>
> No, but the responsibles have responded
My command of my native language (English) is pretty good, but the above
is so ungrammatical that I don't understand it at all. I have no
This is another strawman argument isn't it? Nobody on this thread
has said they want monospaced alphanumerics.
Your examples unfortunately rendered as gibberish on both of my email
clients (Microsoft Outlook and Mozilla Thunderbird). If it weren't for
(1) I'd ask you to repeat that in ASCII,
Lots of useful and sensible opinions to which to reply, quoted below.
I'll try to reply to all of them at once.
In summary then, suggestions which seem to cause considerably less
objection than the Ricardo Cancho Niemietz proposal are:
(1) Invent a new DIGIT COMBINING LIGATURE character, whic
more
>
Thanks for your highly constructive email. I'd be quite happy then to
support the addition of just one single new Unicode character then
(instead of six) - as in your ligature idea, which above I called DIGIT
COMBINING LIGATURE. This would seem to solve everything (pending your
ans
> -Original Message-
> From: Philippe Verdy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Why restricting to this range then [0 to 15]? The range of digits
is
> mathematically
> infinite if you consider any possible radix...
That's correct, of course. The reason is that, in my experience (as I
can'
Look, for one thing I mentioned natural sort of an EXAMPLE of how I
think the digits ten to fifteen should be treated identically to the
digits zero to nine, not the raison d'etre. But could anyone else who
wishes to post on this subject (natural sort) please CONSIDER whether
you've actually u
2003 3:29 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Hexadecimal digits?
>
>
> Jill Ramonsky posted:
>
> > However, "File99A" (where A is a hex digit) should
> > sort (much) after both "File99A" (where A is a letter) and
> "File100".
>
Sorry, but I have to correct you. You state below that "[my] argument
doesn't work". This is slightly confusing because I haven't proposed
any arguments, beyond that I support the inclusion into Unicode of hex
digits which are distinct from the letters A to Z.
I can only assume you are sugges
> Jill Ramonsky wrote:
> > example a file called "File99" will sort just before "File100".
> > "File99A" will slot between them, but "File992" will go after
> > them. It's all pretty much exactly what you'd expect.
>
>
l
> -Original Message-
> From: Philippe Verdy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 11:30 AM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Hexadecimal digits?
>
>
> In fact, the proposal suggests (prefers) exactly the
> oppos
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Everson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:58 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Hexadecimal digits?
>
>
> At 09:19 + 2003-11-10, Jill Ramonsky wrote:
> >Well, obviously I support this
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Everson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:56 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Hexadecimal digits?
> There are oceans of data out there with ABCDEF used already. What do
> you propose to do about that?
Nothing. This is
Well, obviously I support this totally, since I suggested the same thing
myself on this list earlier this year (see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unicode/message/20789).
I am 100% in favor of adding hex digits to Unicode. I speak as a
programmer, and as a designer of software architecture. Ther
Hi,
What is a conforming application supposed to do if, when decoding a
UTF-8 stream (or indeed a UTF-32 stream, etc.), it encounters a
sequence of bytes which decodes to U+D800, U+DF00 ?
Of course, if such a sequence were encountered during UTF-16 processing
it would be pretty obvious, but I
Thanks.
That's kinda what I thought, but I wasn't sure.
Jill
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 2:52 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: UTF-16 inside UTF-8
>
Wow!
I'm starting to think that Linux and Java have it right. Just use one
character. Keep it the same throughout. Sorted.
But ... oh ... then you still have to convert to CRLF when you send it
over the internet as emal. Damn!
Here's a better idea.
Let's just stick with the idea that ANY C0 or C
Are we completely sure about this? I mean - maybe the confusion is about
what constitutes a "text file", not about what constitutes a line break.
I would argue that a complete, valid, text file, must contain an
integral number of lines. However, were I to take a text file, and split
it into ten
16 doesn't have the binary sort property either.
Jill
> -Original Message-
> From: John Cowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 4:32 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Encoding for Fun (was Line Separator)
>
&
Well, that was considerably less wrath than I was expecting. Phew!
But to justify a few design decisions - yes, the encoding is longer (in
general) than UTF-8, but UTF-8 only attempts to preserve ASCII. I
needed to preserve ISO-8859-1. The reasons for this are complicated,
but basically I had
> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 6:19 AM
> To: Unicode Mailing List
> Cc: Marco Cimarosti; Jill Ramonsky
> Subject: Re: Line Separator and Paragraph Separator
> Importance: Low
>
>
&
n Cowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 1:58 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Line Separator and Paragraph Separator
>
>
> Jill Ramonsky scripsit:
>
> > I wonder why it was not felt a good idea at the time (the
>
nd my apologies John,
Jill
> -Original Message-
> From: John Cowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 1:19 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Backslash n [OT] was Line Separator and
> Paragraph Separator
>
&g
> -Original Message-
> From: Frank da Cruz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 4:53 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Line Separator and Paragraph Separator
>
>
> At some point in the early 1990s, the thinking
Message-
> From: John Cowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 6:32 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Line Separator and Paragraph Separator
>
> > Strictly speaking, BY DEFINITION (from
> the C and C++
> > specs),
Are the LS and PS characters actually used in real plain-text documents?
I ask because plain text documents are created by text editors. The text
editor I happen to use is TextPad (there are hundreds of others, and
everyone has their favorite). It can save in UTF-8, and so on. But it
always sav
it's not really a
script", and "the UTC sincerely hopes that they never get used at all".
Could have saved an awful lot of time!
Jill
> -Original Message-----
> From: John Cowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 12:43 PM
> To: Jill Ra
sage-
> From: Peter Kirk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 11:22 AM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Klingons and their allies - Beyond 17 planes
>
>
> On 20/10/2003 02:10, Jill Ramonsky wrote:
>
> >
> &g
I challenge you to find a document or script which used the characters
represented by codepoints U+E0020 to U+E007F before their
inclusion in Unicode.
In point of fact, I challenge you to find any document, script,
application, or indeed any use whatsoever for certain particular of
these tag
D]
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 2:36 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Klingons and their allies - Beyond 17 planes
>
>
> You persist in misunderstanding.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John Cowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 12:44 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Klingons and their allies - Beyond 17 planes
>
>
> Jill Ramonsky scripsit:
>
> &
> -Original Message-
> From: Rick McGowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 7:50 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Beyond 17 planes, was: Java char and Unicode 3.0+
>
>
> Before everyone goes jumping off the deep end with wanting to
> reserve more
> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Kirk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 4:04 PM
> To: Philippe Verdy
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Beyond 17 planes, was: Java char and Unicode 3.0+
>
> Plenty of
> room there to encode not just all the scripts of the
Here's an alternative idea.
In UTF-16, as it's currently defined, codepoints in the range U+01
to U+10 are represented as some High Surrogate (HS) followed by some
Low Surrogate (LS). Also, as currently defined, any HS not followed by
an LS, or an LS not preceeded by an HS, is illegal.
rule - never hard-code limitations into your design
if you don't have to. You may one day live to regret it. (Or you may not
... but no-one will ever critise you for erring on the side of safety).
Jill Ramonsky
> -Original Message-
> From: Philippe Verdy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> The same
> optimization can be done in Java by subclassing the String
> class to add a "form" field and related form conversion (getters)
> and tests methods.
Only slightly confused about this. The Java String
> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Kirk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:19 PM
> To: Unicode List
> Subject: Canonical equivalence in rendering: mandatory or
recommended?
>
>
> Does everyone agree that "This is not a performance issue"?
In my experie
Er, dude. It's called a sense of humor. Hence the smiley (which you
snipped).
Jill
> -Original Message-
> From: Marco Cimarosti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:32 PM
> To: 'Jill Ramonsky'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: W
[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:20 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Non-ascii string processing?
>
>
> On 07/10/2003 02:35, Jill Ramonsky wrote:
>
> >
> > Knowing the number of characters won't help you one iota
I have invented a new system, Unilib, for organising books in a library.
... Except that you're not allowed to call them "books" any more,
because I've already redefined the word "book" to mean "the physical
expression of a catalogue entry". Since what the user normally
experiences as a book ma
Sigh! Things were a lot easier back in the old days of Unicode version
3, when default grapheme clusters were still called "glyphs". Okay, so
the general public still got it wrong, but that was just because they
were ignorant monkeys who didn't know any better, and it was up to the
likes of us
Knowing the number of characters won't help you one iota. What you need
to know here is the number of default grapheme clusters.
I still have yet to hear a useful purpose for counting the number of
/characters/.
Jill
> -Original Message-
> From: Edward H. Trager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Well, I guess if I've got too many characters in my text for this
particular editor, I could always just present the document in NFC. That
might reduce the number a bit. However, I /strongly/ suspect that what
this editor /really/ wants is "no more than 3000 default grapheme
clusters". In which
Could you try that again with codepoints > U+ please? I'd be curious
to know what happens.
Jill
> -Original Message-
> From: John Delacour [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 2:15 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Non-ascii string processing?
>
>
> At 12
Nor I. "Characters" are perhaps the most useless objects ever invented.
Now - a count of DEFAULT GRAPHEME CLUSTERs might be useful (for example,
for display on a console which uses fixed-width fonts). Indeed, a whole
class of DEFAULT GRAPHEME CLUSTER handling functions might come in very
handy
Yeah, but dude, wasting time on stupid ideas goes with the territory if
you happen to be a creative genius. Some of your ideas won't work.
Others will be magnificent. I'd put good money on the notion that if
Newton had been prevented from pursuing astrology or numerology, this
restriction would
Hi,
I'm wondering, exactly how equivalent are the following sequences:
U+00BC (vulgar fraction one quarter)
U+215F U+0034 (fraction numerator one; digit four)
U+0031 U+2044 U+0034 (digit one; fraction slash; digit four)
In particular, should they be rendered with the same glyph?
Is it possible t
Ludvig, this Pastoral Symphony of yours all seems to me like something
of a pointless excercise.
And Albert, this "Theory of Relativity" of yours all seems to me like
something of a pointless excercise.
Never discourage someone else's creativity.
Jill
> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Mc
;s a different kettle
of fish altogether. Maybe we could have another thread for that.
> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Kirk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:33 PM
> To: Jill Ramonsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Fun with proof by analogy, w
I don't see anything wrong with the spec. So far as I can see it is
doing the right thing. Although the behaviour of the described server
could be better.
First point - if no information is present, assume "us-ascii". Sounds extremely
sensible to me. ASCII is the intersection of Latin-1, UTF-
Very true, but I was thinking more of things like uppercasing and
lowercasing algorithms, regular expressions and the like. Font drawing is a
bit out of my league ... not really my area of expertise.
Anyway, prophesising the future is a somewhere between a fun game, an
implementation exercise, an
Doug, I appreciate that you are trying to be helpful, so thank you very much
for the thought, but your email was, shall we say, not correctly targetted.
I write compilers. I design computer languages. I write operating systems. I
am trying to get an understanding of Unicode so that the things I de
I'm afraid that's not very practical, because, you see, if I have a
hypothetical compiler for some hypothetical programming-language, and I
download some source-code from the internet and try to complile it, I expect
one of two things, either (1) it will compile cleanly, or (2) I will have to
UPGR
Damn. I guess you guys are all going to hate me for asking this, but ...
what exactly is a mathematical space?
Jill
PS. I'm going to pre-empt any puns on other interpretations of the phrase
"mathematical space", such as phase space, N-dimensional space, Hilbert
space and so on. Don't go there.
> This notice is relevant to anyone dealing with programming languages,
query
> specifications, regular expressions, scripting languages, and similar
domains.
That's me.
I read the draft, and actually I was very happy with it. No complaints at
all. I am particularly happy that the mathematical l
-Original Message-
From: Rick McGowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 3:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hexadecimal again (was RE: Clones)
My apologies if I have offended you (though I'm not quite sure how I might
have done). Let me reassure you that we'
In Esperanto, there is no word for "yard". If you want to say "It was 50
yards away" you are expected to convert the distance to meters before
translation. Such is the requirement of a global language.
However, Esperanto was not entirely successful in its goal to become a
second language for ever
Well that just proves my point then.
There are indeed some things that DO need to support the whole of Unicode
(more or less).
Jill
-Original Message-
From: Peter Kirk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:
Thanks, but not good enough.
What guarantee do I have that other Unicode characters will not be added in
the future which have the property "Hex_Digit"?
How do I write an algorithm which will convert Unicode hex characters to
hexadecimal which is guaranteed to work for all future versions of Uni
I disagree.
A post-Windows, post-Linux, Operating System for the 21st century intended
for global use, should ideally support the whole of Unicode.
There are, in fact, people working on such projects.
Jill
-Original Message-
From: Jim Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, Augus
Yeah, I know. But like I said, who uses this?
I have a QWERTY keyboard in front of me. I use a standard en-GB key mapping.
Now I _could_ customise my keymap such that Right-Alt + HYPHEN MINUS yielded
MINUS SIGN. Wouldn't that be great? Then I could write things like "x = -5;"
unambiguously. But i
Personally, I don't see why we have to sell beer (or anything else for that
matter) in integer multiples of any kind of "units" at all. Why can't we
just bring an arbitrarily sized, partially full, glass to the bar and say to
the guy at the bar: "Could you fill it up to about HERE please?".
It's
All of this makes sense to me, apart from one or two tiny niggling points...
I confess, I hadn't read ch14.pdf, and I probably should have done. My
fault. But I still believe that there should be something in the
machine-readable code charts themselves that says, of the Roman numerals,
"Don't use
For what it's worth, in America, you spell it "meter"; in England, you spell
it "metre".
Jill
-Original Message-
From: Philippe Verdy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 5:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)
SI units already h
If the semantic
difference between (for example) uppercase D and mathemematical bold
uppercase D was considered sufficiently great so as to require a new
codepoint, then I am tempted to wonder if the same might be considered true of
hexadecimal digits.
What I mean is, it
seems (to me) tha
What's more, in the Isle of Man (which is situated between Britain and
Ireland) they accept pretty much any currency under the sun. You can pay for
things in a mixture of pounds sterling, euro, US dollars, whatever. They
don't care. Shops will just take anything, and if necessary make up an
exchan
I'm happy now. All of my questions have been answered.
Thank you everyone.
Jill
Isn't the very notion of "submit[ting] a FAQ question" a contradiction in
terms? Surely, one merely ASKS a question. If enough people ask the same
question, we may then classify it as "frequently asked".
It's like this. Newbies want to find things out. So they read books, and
look around on the w
Hey thanks - I think I've got all that now.
Of course, I'm tempted to wonder whether or not it would have made more
sense to simply have introduced a few new combining characters in plane 0,
such as: "make bold", "make italic", "make script", "make fraktur", "make
double-struck", "make sans serif
I'm reasonably sure that this question reflects my own ignorance, rather
than some problem with the standard, but nonetheless, I am confused.
For a start, we have the letters A to Z starting at 41.
Then we have the circled forms starting at 0024B6.
Then we have the fullwidth forms starting a
Ah, now you're making assumptions about me which are not, in fact, valid.
I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean by "the text", but I own a copy of
"The Unicode Standard Version 3.0" and have read it pretty much in entirety.
I have also read almost everything I could find on the unicode.org web
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