On Sat, 2022-07-23 at 20:56 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> Choice of fonts should be mentioned: use a font where 1 (one), l
> (lower case L), O (capital o), and 0 (zero) look different.
And the | symbol!
That kind of thing had long been a bugbear of mine until I started
using Linux and
On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 5:52 PM Peter Boy wrote:
>
>
> > Am 23.07.2022 um 21:24 schrieb George N. White III :
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 7:34 PM Joe Zeff wrote:
> >
> >
> > It's not an editor war, at least from my POV. I'm only trying to get
> > some of the other people here understand
> Am 23.07.2022 um 21:24 schrieb George N. White III :
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 7:34 PM Joe Zeff wrote:
>
>
> It's not an editor war, at least from my POV. I'm only trying to get
> some of the other people here understand that there isn't One True
> Editor, and that people writing
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 7:34 PM Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 7/22/22 16:14, Peter Boy wrote:
> > there is a reason why vi remains so popular and widespread among
> professional system administrators.
>
> And that reason is?
>
> > And they have only a weary smile for this editor war.
>
> It's not an
On Sun, 2022-07-24 at 04:19 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
> Tim:
> > > there are specific instances of vi, like visudo, which solves a
> > > particular problem that other editors do not (man visudo goes
> > > into
> > > what's special about it).
>
>
> Patrick O'Callaghan:
> > Despite the name,
Tim:
>> there are specific instances of vi, like visudo, which solves a
>> particular problem that other editors do not (man visudo goes into
>> what's special about it).
Patrick O'Callaghan:
> Despite the name, visudo can be used with any editor. The man page
> gives an example.
>
Yes, you
On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 20:56:18 +0930
Tim via users wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-07-23 at 11:00 +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
> > Nevertheless, what’s your specific suggestion? How should we do it
> > this specifically in Fedora documentation? How can we accomplish this
> > under the condition of good
On 7/23/22 05:26, Tim via users wrote:
The problem with users never touching something like vi is that one day
they may have to use it, it may be the only thing preinstalled on a
problematic system. And there are specific instances of vi, like
visudo, which solves a particular problem that
On 7/23/22 03:00, Peter Boy wrote:
All the texts I’m aware of describe it at the beginning and/or repeat it in the
text again and again.
Nevertheless, what’s your specific suggestion? How should we do it this
specifically in Fedora documentation? How can we accomplish this under the
On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 08:29:09AM -0600, James Szinger wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:56:13 -0600
Joe Zeff wrote:
On 7/22/22 13:34, James Szinger wrote:
> I first encountered UNIX after years of using VMS, IBM mainframes,
> and a plethora of personal computers. They ALL had editors better
>
On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:29:09 -0600
James Szinger wrote:
> The IBM 3277 was released in 1971 and had arrow keys.
If I'm recalling though, the IBM terminals were data entry things
designed exclusively for form fill out. Entire screens had to be
redrawn to change one character. (Or at least many of
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 13:56:13 -0600
Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 7/22/22 13:34, James Szinger wrote:
> > I first encountered UNIX after years of using VMS, IBM mainframes,
> > and a plethora of personal computers. They ALL had editors better
> > than vi. Who writes an editor where the arrow keys don’t
On Sat, 2022-07-23 at 20:56 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
> The problem with users never touching something like vi is that one
> day
> they may have to use it, it may be the only thing preinstalled on a
> problematic system. And there are specific instances of vi, like
> visudo, which solves a
On Sat, 2022-07-23 at 11:00 +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
> Nevertheless, what’s your specific suggestion? How should we do it
> this specifically in Fedora documentation? How can we accomplish this
> under the condition of good readability?
My inclination is to go along the lines of, by way of mock
On Sat, 2022-07-23 at 01:03 -0400, Jon LaBadie wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 05:42:44PM -0500, Roger Heflin wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 2:35 PM James Szinger
> > wrote:
> ...
> > >
> > > I first encountered UNIX after years of using VMS, IBM
> > > mainframes, and
> > > a plethora of
> Am 23.07.2022 um 08:33 schrieb Joe Zeff :
>
>> and the mention of a specific program name is more of a placeholder that
>> can/must be adapted just like other file- oder variable names in the sample
>> code.
>
> And how many Linux newcomers do you think realize that?
All the texts I’m
On 7/23/22 00:10, Peter Boy wrote:
I like that idea. On the other hand, hardly any how-to writes with a specific editor
in mind (e.g. "Press :wq to save and quit) and the mention of a specific
program name is more of a placeholder that can/must be adapted just like other file-
oder variable
> Am 23.07.2022 um 00:34 schrieb Joe Zeff :
>
> On 7/22/22 16:14, Peter Boy wrote:
>> there is a reason why vi remains so popular and widespread among
>> professional system administrators.
>
> And that reason is?
The incredibly rich feature set provides an effective processing option for
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 05:42:44PM -0500, Roger Heflin wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 2:35 PM James Szinger wrote:
...
I first encountered UNIX after years of using VMS, IBM mainframes, and
a plethora of personal computers. They ALL had editors better than
vi. Who writes an editor where
Joe Zeff:
> And if vi is number six, who is Number One?
I am not a number!!
--
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-1160.71.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Jun 28 15:37:28 UTC 2022 x86_64
Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 2:35 PM James Szinger wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 18:43:05 +0100
> Barry wrote:
>
> > At Berkeley university they liked emacs but on the VAX 11/780 only
> > one user could be supported on BSD. The problem was found to be the
> > I/O rate from single char input and
On 7/22/22 16:14, Peter Boy wrote:
there is a reason why vi remains so popular and widespread among professional
system administrators.
And that reason is?
And they have only a weary smile for this editor war.
It's not an editor war, at least from my POV. I'm only trying to get
some of
> Am 22.07.2022 um 21:56 schrieb Joe Zeff :
>
> To be fair, when vi was written, there were no arrow keys. Still, I my
> personal opinion is "Fi on vi!“
there is a reason why vi remains so popular and widespread among professional
system administrators. And they have only a weary smile for
On 7/22/22 14:31, a...@clueserver.org wrote:
When vi was written it was called the number six.
And if vi is number six, who is Number One?
___
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> On 7/22/22 13:34, James Szinger wrote:
>> I first encountered UNIX after years of using VMS, IBM mainframes, and
>> a plethora of personal computers. They ALL had editors better than
>> vi. Who writes an editor where the arrow keys donât work!
>
> To be fair, when vi was written, there
On 7/22/22 13:34, James Szinger wrote:
I first encountered UNIX after years of using VMS, IBM mainframes, and
a plethora of personal computers. They ALL had editors better than
vi. Who writes an editor where the arrow keys don’t work!
To be fair, when vi was written, there were no arrow
On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 18:43:05 +0100
Barry wrote:
> At Berkeley university they liked emacs but on the VAX 11/780 only
> one user could be supported on BSD. The problem was found to be the
> I/O rate from single char input and echoing.
>
> In response to the need to support 30 students on the VAX
On Thu, 2022-07-21 at 11:26 +0800, Lily White wrote:
> I remember furiously inserting `g$' on my file until I remembered I'm
> using nano.
>
> Anyway vi commands are easier to remember compared to Emacs, by a
> margin.
"Easier" is in the eye of the beholder. Vi is modal, which trips many
people
On 7/20/22 21:26, Lily White wrote:
Anyway vi commands are easier to remember compared to Emacs, by a margin.
No argument there! Back when I was studying programming, using CP/M,
the school provided MINCE (MINCE Is Not Completely Emacs) as our editor.
When I started playing around with
I remember furiously inserting `g$' on my file until I remembered I'm
using nano.
Anyway vi commands are easier to remember compared to Emacs, by a margin.
On 7/21/22 12:00 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 7/20/22 09:38, Ron Flory via users wrote:
Careful there- even today, a very large number of
On 7/20/22 11:48, Tim via users wrote:
Now it's a welcome surprise to find someone who doesn't
need step by step guiding through an entire process.
I did telephone tech support for an ISP for about a decade and worked
with large numbers of people who didn't know how to do anything with
their
On 7/20/22 11:47, Jon LaBadie wrote:
You mean nano is so complex that you can't remember its basic commands?
No, I mean that I don't use it often enough to need to memorize them.
If I did, I'm sure that I'd know all of the commands that I used in
day-to-day work and only needed to use ^G to
On 7/20/22 10:16, John Mellor wrote:
Hmm, that line of thought opens a really rusted can of worms. Since
80-90% of "newcomers" use Windows and their fingers are programmed for
Windows keystrokes and mouse actions, maybe the Linux desktop should be
a look-alike instead of just being better.
On Jul 20, 2022, at 11:38, Ron Flory via users
wrote:
> Also, I think you mean 'shell' instead of 'terminal'- a 'terminal' is an
> external piece of hardware that terminates a serial line, like an ADM-3A or
> TVI-912C, etc. We generally haven't used terminals since the 1980's.
“Terminal”
On Wed, 2022-07-20 at 09:57 -0600, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 7/20/22 09:30, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I don't know how you draw that conclusion from what is merely a
> > reminiscence. I use vi because I'm familiar with it. I've also used
> > emacs extensively and like it. There are plenty of
On Wed, 2022-07-20 at 09:57 -0600, Joe Zeff wrote:
> I draw that conclusion from reading many posts here and elsewhere
> from Linux newbies using vi because (and possibly only because)
> whatever walkthroughs they're trying to follow specify vi, instead of
> just a text editor.
There you're into
On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 10:00:13AM -0600, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 7/20/22 09:38, Ron Flory via users wrote:
Careful there- even today, a very large number of new Linux devices
don't run a GUI at all, so a text-based editor (and knowing how to drive
it) is a necessity.
Yes, but it doesn't have
> On 20 Jul 2022, at 18:09, Joe Zeff wrote:
>
> On 7/19/22 11:03, R. G. Newbury wrote:
>>> But I definitely didn't use vim, I used emacs :-).
>> Heretic! Unclean! Unclean!
>
> I've never understood why so many people worship vi. If I need to edit a
> file in a terminal, I use Mork's
On 2022-07-20 11:14 a.m., Joe Zeff wrote:
On 7/20/22 05:54, George N. White III wrote:
On early unix systems, terminals were the only user interface. At that
time, vi was a big improvement over ed. Many early unix users
learned vi, and now still find it available by default on most linux
On 7/20/22 09:38, Ron Flory via users wrote:
Careful there- even today, a very large number of new Linux devices
don't run a GUI at all, so a text-based editor (and knowing how to drive
it) is a necessity.
Yes, but it doesn't have to be vi. One of the reasons I like nano is
that most
On 7/20/22 09:30, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I don't know how you draw that conclusion from what is merely a
reminiscence. I use vi because I'm familiar with it. I've also used
emacs extensively and like it. There are plenty of alternatives and no-
one is being forced to use any of them. I think
On 7/20/2022 10:16 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 7/20/22 07:45, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > We couldn't even run vi at the time on our PDP-11/45 with 6th Edition
> > UNIX. IIRC it was too big for the address space. I wrote my PhD thesis
> > in Nroff using George Coulouris' em ('editor for
On Wed, 2022-07-20 at 09:16 -0600, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 7/20/22 07:45, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > We couldn't even run vi at the time on our PDP-11/45 with 6th
> > Edition
> > UNIX. IIRC it was too big for the address space. I wrote my PhD
> > thesis
> > in Nroff using George Coulouris' em
On 7/20/22 07:45, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
We couldn't even run vi at the time on our PDP-11/45 with 6th Edition
UNIX. IIRC it was too big for the address space. I wrote my PhD thesis
in Nroff using George Coulouris' em ('editor for mortals'), the
precursor to ex, which eventually became vi.
On 7/20/22 05:54, George N. White III wrote:
On early unix systems, terminals were the only user interface. At that
time, vi was a big improvement over ed. Many early unix users
learned vi, and now still find it available by default on most linux
systems as well as macOS.
Yes. I remember
On Wed, 2022-07-20 at 08:54 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 2:25 PM Joe Zeff wrote:
>
> > On 7/19/22 11:03, R. G. Newbury wrote:
> > > > But I definitely didn't use vim, I used emacs :-).
> > > Heretic! Unclean! Unclean!
> >
> > I've never understood why so many
On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 2:25 PM Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 7/19/22 11:03, R. G. Newbury wrote:
> >> But I definitely didn't use vim, I used emacs :-).
> > Heretic! Unclean! Unclean!
>
> I've never understood why so many people worship vi. If I need to edit
> a file in a terminal, I use Mork's Editor.
> Am 19.07.2022 um 07:10 schrieb Jon LaBadie :
>
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 10:50:03PM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
>>
>>
>>> ...
>
> Maybe this from: SYSTEMD-RC-LOCAL-GENERATOR(8)
> Also note that rc-local.service is ordered after network.target, which
> does not mean that the network is
On 18Jul2022 22:50, Peter Boy wrote:
>> Am 18.07.2022 um 22:18 schrieb Peter Boy :
>> I got it finally working.
>
>After some tests: It isn’t.
>
>The programs I have to start depend on the existence of some (virtual) network
>interfaces. rc.local is ordered after network.target, which doesn’t
On 7/19/22 15:26, Tim via users wrote:
If I need to edit a file in a terminal, I use Mork's Editor
I've never even heard of that one. My quick internet search didn't
find it, either.
Naanu naanu...
You probably have, but don't realize it: nano.
Think Mork's editor refers to nano.
Thou with Mork it seems to be spelled nanu nanu..
But that is just a guess..
On 20 Jul 2022 at 6:56, Tim via users wrote:
Subject:Re: Is there an officially Fedora supported
replacement for,>,> the
old rc.local? - still an
On Tue, 2022-07-19 at 11:24 -0600, Joe Zeff wrote:
> I've never understood why so many people worship vi.
It has a long history. It's a default install on many systems. It
works on a command line, it also has a GUI. There's lots of extra
features available. It loads in a flash.
I've been
On 7/19/22 11:03, R. G. Newbury wrote:
But I definitely didn't use vim, I used emacs :-).
Heretic! Unclean! Unclean!
I've never understood why so many people worship vi. If I need to edit
a file in a terminal, I use Mork's Editor.
___
users
On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 07:37:12 -0400 Tom Horsley
wrote> On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 22:25:03 -0400
R. G. Newbury wrote:
This sleight-of-hand was posted by someone on an Arch distro
forum/mailing list. I do not have his name, but kudos and thanks whoever
you are. It works
Those are my exact notes (and
On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 22:25:03 -0400
R. G. Newbury wrote:
> This sleight-of-hand was posted by someone on an Arch distro
> forum/mailing list. I do not have his name, but kudos and thanks whoever
> you are. It works
Those are my exact notes (and even comments) from when systemd
started killing
On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 10:50:03PM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
Am 18.07.2022 um 22:18 schrieb Peter Boy :
I got it finally working.
After some tests: It isn’t.
The programs I have to start depend on the existence of some (virtual)
network interfaces. rc.local is ordered after network.target,
> Am 18.07.2022 um 23:17 schrieb Garry T. Williams :
>
> and then create a .service file to run whatever program you want to
> start at boot-time.
Yeah, that’s the correct way. But in my case I don’t need a permanent solution
(hopefully). I have to start some systemd containers, which of
Am 18.07.2022 um 22:18 schrieb Peter Boy: wrote
I got it finally working.
After some tests: It isn’t.
The programs I have to start depend on the existence of some (virtual) network
interfaces. rc.local is ordered after network.target, which doesn’t mean, the
network is functional then.
On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 22:50:03 +0200
Peter Boy wrote:
> The programs I have to start depend on the existence of some (virtual)
> network interfaces.
Yea, when I was doing stuff with rc.local I had that problem as well.
What I wound up doing was using the "at" command to start the scripts
I really
On Monday, July 18, 2022 4:50:03 PM EDT Peter Boy wrote:
> > Am 18.07.2022 um 22:18 schrieb Peter Boy :
> >
> > I got it finally working.
>
> After some tests: It isn’t.
>
> The programs I have to start depend on the existence of some
> (virtual) network interfaces. rc.local is ordered after
>
> Am 18.07.2022 um 22:18 schrieb Peter Boy :
>
> I got it finally working.
After some tests: It isn’t.
The programs I have to start depend on the existence of some (virtual) network
interfaces. rc.local is ordered after network.target, which doesn’t mean, the
network is functional then.
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