On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 07:28:37AM -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
> One would expect this.
>
> Fred
>
> http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/3517/106/
It is a compliment, what it really means is:
Microsoft is worried that OpenOffice is a credible competitor to MS
Office.
It also raises
On 3/7/06, Robin Laing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> For users around here, 10 years behind is an improvement if "they" can
> "control" what the software "does" to their work.
That's not a good argument for OOo, by any means. If that is the case - why
use OOo when MS Office 97 is still around
I don't think MS users has a choice. Once you switch to MS or upgrade to the
new MS version, YOU ARE STUCK that's how they make a lot of money...
Robin Laing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Fred A. Miller wrote:
> One would expect this.
>
> Fred
>
> http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/3517/10
Fred A. Miller wrote:
One would expect this.
Fred
http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/3517/106/
-
For users around here, 10 years behind is an improvement if "they" can
"control" what the software "does" to their work. MS
e free
alternatives are just too expensive.
--Jekke
-Original Message-
From: Christina Godinez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:06 PM
To: users@openoffice.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [users] Microsoft says Open Office.org 10 years behind
I don't thi
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
One point that MS is constantly hammering home and the OSS community is
looking away from, whistling as if it didn't exist, is "total cost of
ownership" (TCO.) ... but if it takes 8 hours to retrain each employee
[snip]
What you are referrin
e's high-end feature set with OOo's high
end feature set would be far more expensive than the difference in initial cost
is worth.
--Jekke
-Original Message-
From: Lars D. Noodén [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 2:16 PM
To: users@openoffice.org
Subject:
Chad Smith wrote:
On 3/7/06, Robin Laing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For users around here, 10 years behind is an improvement if "they" can
"control" what the software "does" to their work.
That's not a good argument for OOo, by any means. If that is the case - why
use OOo when MS Office 9
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
Cost of retraining is one aspect of TCO as is the initial sticker price
of the software. I agree that there is a retraining cost involved with
upgrading MS-Office, but nothing in the link provided suggests it's
going to be worse than the upgra
Lars D. Noodén wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [snip]
>> One point that MS is constantly hammering home and the OSS community is
>> looking away from, whistling as if it didn't exist, is "total cost of
>> ownership" (TCO.) ... but if it takes 8 hours to retrain each employ
omentum for change.
--Jekke
-Original Message-
From: John Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 3:05 PM
To: users@openoffice.org
Subject: Re: [users] Microsoft says Open Office.org 10 years behind
Lars D. Noodén wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:05:04PM -0700, John Meyer wrote:
> Lars D. Noodén wrote:
> > On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> One point that MS is constantly hammering home and the OSS community is
> >> looking away from, whistling as if it didn't exist, is "total cost of
> >
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, John Meyer wrote:
[snip]
As far as retraining, are employees so dumb that they aren't going to
find out how to print from oOO as opposed from MS Office? Or do a
calculation in Calc as opposed to Excel?
Many will even find OOo easier. I know a few like that already. My poin
> > ... And, the replacement of MS Office's high-end feature set with
OOo's
> > high end feature set would be far more expensive than the difference
in
> > initial cost is worth.
>
> That's my point. The difference for the user between MSO XP or 2003
and
> MS 2007 is much larger than between M
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lars, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Ah, OK, spoken like a true apologist. ;) What's your proposed solution?
... I've been hearing how a development over the horizon is finally
going to break Microsoft's hold over the OS/Bro
On 3/7/06, Lars D. Noodén <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Outlook is bundled, not distributed separately.
not true -
http://froogle.google.com/froogle_cluster?q=outlook&pid=1848998505155356156&oid=11546009940788447688&btnG=Search+Froogle&ei=8_ANRNjeN7mwkwGHwKm9Cw&sig2=v8maM721dHz-744DzPjBIA&sco
ally harder to destroy than to create.
--Jekke
-Original Message-
From: Lars D. Noodén [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 3:40 PM
To: users@openoffice.org
Subject: RE: [users] Microsoft says Open Office.org 10 years behind
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mar 7, 2006, at 12:27, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
... And, the replacement of MS Office's high-end feature set with
OOo's
high end feature set would be far more expensive than the difference
in
initial cost is worth.
That's my point. The difference for the user between MSO XP or 2003
On Tuesday 07 March 2006 12:53, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think both sides of the argument are a bit disingenuous. If you listen
> to the open-source side and take their arguments at face value, it never
> makes sense to buy software. If you listen to Microsoft, using open
> source products is n
On 3/7/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > Lars, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
> >
> > Ah, OK, spoken like a true apologist. ;) What's your proposed solution?
>
> Patience, perseverence, and a 20% across-the-board reduction in the size
> of developer eg
Chad Smith wrote:
You are totally dilluding yourself if you belive that. I have a very
"non-power user" for a boss, and he freaked out when I let his Powerbook
update his iTunes. All it did was change the background color and move a
button or two. To be clear - it's the same program - the s
On 08/03/2006, at 7:27 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
... And, the replacement of MS Office's high-end feature set with
OOo's
high end feature set would be far more expensive than the difference
in
initial cost is worth.
That's my point. The difference for the user
On 3/7/06, Howard Coles Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Fact 1: you WILL spend the same amount in "lost productivity" because of
> "training" if you are upgrading to a new version of MS Office, especially
> if
> they have changed enough around to confuse folks. While the amount may be
> some
On 3/7/06, Robin Laing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Chad, your comments here are exactly what I was getting at before
> about people losing productivity and wanting their old product back.
> You put it in words that I cannot.
Good point. In one email I say I've never heard someone complain t
I've been using OO for almost a year. I'm not a power user. So far, I'm very
satisfied. I like the feature where I can save a file as PDF I don't think
MS has this feature right now.
"Howard Coles Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tuesday 07 March 2006 12:53,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I
Another problem is a lack of support. What 800 number do you call at 2 am
> on Saturday night to get tech support for your 500 seats of OpenOffice.org
> ?
> I know the one to call if it's a problem with MSO. Granted it will cost
> me
> $35 a hour (or more) to call them - but it's there.
This
On 08/03/2006, at 8:17 AM, Howard Coles Jr. wrote:
SNIP!
Fact 5: "TCO" is nebulous at best, and can be skewed in any
direction the
person putting the figures together wants it to go, and in my
opinion nearly
impossible to nail down to any exact figure. There are so many
ways to
figure t
In the same spirit, I hope you won't take offense as I dissect your
arguments. To answer your question, I'm not a manager or an executive.
I'm a developer in a small (150 people in 5 cities) firm and a
consultant to a slightly larger firm who gets called on to make
assessments of tool purchases on
> Wow! You can see into the future!
It's part of my job. Or, maybe it will be one day.
--Jekke
-Original Message-
From: Jonathon Coombes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 4:39 PM
To: users@openoffice.org
Subject: Re: [users] Microsoft says Open Office.org
On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 15:39 -0500, Lars D. Noodén wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Lars, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
>
> Ah, OK, spoken like a true apologist. ;) What's your proposed solution?
>
> > ... I've been hearing how a development over t
You do a 500 seat install and need support, we will happliy provide
it at $35.00 per call -- we might even be williing to arrange the
rollout and training -- for a fee -- how about 50% of your up front
cost of an MSO upgrade :)
Andy
Spitfire Computer Services
441 Beaver Street
Suite 202
Se
On Tuesday 07 March 2006 17:11, D. Bale wrote:
>Chad Smith wrote:
>> On 3/7/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Patience, perseverence, and a 20% across-the-board reduction in the
>>> size of developer egos in the OSS world.
>>
>> ROTFL!!!
>>
>> I don't know if it's so much the dev
> Only when there's an installed user base for OOo coming out of the
> universities and high schools will it become a more attractive option to
> the business software market.
This is the most accurate thing that has been said so far. People as a
general rule hate change and most will resist and
Jack Gates wrote:
Only when there's an installed user base for OOo coming out of the
universities and high schools will it become a more attractive option to
the business software market.
This is the most accurate thing that has been said so far. People as a
general rule hate change and most
Not wanting to debate, here, but thought I'd throw some info in...
I write manuals for a living. Last year, I sat down and tested 4 products - 2 MSO versions, WordPerfect, and OOo 2 BETA. For our needs - relatively complex word-processing with export to PDF - OOo (even in beta form) finished a cl
On Tuesday 07 March 2006 15:39, Chad Smith wrote:
> On 3/7/06, Howard Coles Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Fact 1: you WILL spend the same amount in "lost productivity" because of
> > "training" if you are upgrading to a new version of MS Office, especially
> > if
> > they have changed enough
On Tuesday 07 March 2006 16:07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In the same spirit, I hope you won't take offense as I dissect your
Not arguing with you (yet :- ), just a thought.
For some reason, and it might be my kmail client, all your replies are replies
to your previous posts or appear that way.
I work at UPS. At the largest UPS Hub in the world. The largest
employer in Kentucky.
We use Microsoft Office.
In my experience, about 2/3 of the employees use Excel for drawing, not
any formulas or anything that takes training. This is using the boxes
to draw layouts. These same 1/2, do not h
My own personal viewpoint is a lot simpler.
We started off noting that a Microsoft spokesman was explaining why MSO
would always be better than OO.
That is the main thing. How to read it? Perhaps not that Microsoft is
quaking in its boots over the thought of OpenOffice taking over, but
cer
Cool! Naomi, do you have a summary online somewhere? A comparison of
products is rather uncommon these days and it would be very useful to have
the URL.
-Lars
Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Keep the market open by keeping software patents out:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/inte
On Wednesday 08 March 2006 07:48, Andrew Fisk wrote:
> This was always Apple's logic, figuring that if they had the kids in
> school, they would continue to use Apple products in the business
> world. Obviously not a strategy that OO.o should rely on for serious
> penetration of the business marke
This was always Apple's logic, figuring that if they had the kids in
school, they would continue to use Apple products in the business
world. Obviously not a strategy that OO.o should rely on for serious
penetration of the business market. On the bright side, the fact
that all those young
On Tuesday 07 March 2006 23:09, Jim Wagner wrote:
>
> After all, it'll be awful hard to force OpenOffice into bankruptcy, or
> for MS to buy it out.
This is exactly what is making MS nervous, because it can't bankrupt or buy
out the competition. This is the stand procedure of any big powerful
b
Which may be why MS appears so eager to get software patents into Europe.
The USPTO has granted MS over 5000 software patents now on all kinds of
common methods and heuristics including XML serialization. That, in
effect, outlaws all non-MS software, beit closed source or open source.
MS has
On 3/7/06, Howard Coles Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Your focus is too narrowed. There's StarOffice, which you can pay 75
> bucks a
> seat for and get support, by a business.
I'm sorry - is this the StarOffice users list? I'm not talking about
StarOffice, or Luxitive Office, or OpenOffic
-Original Message-
So: yes - people do need training in OO to bring them from M$ Office.
As a "middle-aged" computer user (and an Advanced Excel User) I would say
the training needed to use OO from MS Office is about the same as that
needed to go from MS Office 2000 to MS Office 2002 - i
On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 02:07:32PM -, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>
>
> -Original Message-
> So: yes - people do need training in OO to bring them from M$ Office.
>
> As a "middle-aged" computer user (and an Advanced Excel User) I would say
> the training needed to use OO from MS Of
shot in the arm from this.
-Original Message-
From: Alain Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 08 March 2006 02:14 PM
To: users@openoffice.org
Subject: Re: [users] Microsoft says Open Office.org 10 years behind
On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 02:07:32PM -, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>
I agree, for most users you won't need extra training, you only need that for
those who really need advanced functions, and that usually is only a handfull
of users. An OO training course for 2 or 3 would probably not be that costly.
Of course it'll take some time to change templates, macros etc
On 3/8/06, Mixu Lauronen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Using office applications effectively isn't about learning the order of
> menus and menu selections or keystrokes. It is about understanding the
> basic principles of, say, Windows programs in general and the basics of
> spreadsheeting and word
Chad Smith wrote:
retraining a entirely new way of handling Mail Merge,
> bullets, lists, outlines, macros (which can't be
transfered - they have to be rewriten), etc. when you
> switch from MSO to OOo is a different story.
> The cost will be more for OOo, because there is far
more to learn.
Chad Smith wrote:
You say it "isn't about" memorizing keystrokes, etc. - you are wrong. That
is what is it's about. That might not be what it *should be* about, but
that's where it is.
Okay, I'll rephrase that. Memorizing keystrokes and menu items isn't
what working with applications shoul
On 3/8/06, Mixu Lauronen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> I believe that most CEOs understand that paying 1000 more now to teach
> the employers the principles in order to avoid paying 1 in the
> future to teach everything again when updating pays off in the long run.
>
You must have stopped
A while ago, I wrote an email:
I have two computers. One in the dining room has Microsoft Office and
the one in my basement office has OpenOffice.org 2.0.1. In the dining
room, using Excel, I created a spreadsheet. It was a large spreadsheet
. I wanted to do some data manipulation, but coul
Lars D. Noodén wrote:
Cool! Naomi, do you have a summary online somewhere? A comparison of
products is rather uncommon these days and it would be very useful to
have the URL.
I do have the comparison tests I ran, and the results (turns out I
tested with two versions of OOo, not two version
Hi Naomi,
Might I also get a copy?
Thanks very much.
Bob Doyle.
Naomi Kramer wrote:
Lars D. Noodén wrote:
Cool! Naomi, do you have a summary online somewhere? A comparison
of products is rather uncommon these days and it would be very useful
to have the URL.
I do have the comparison te
$65.00 an hour phone calls, or wait forever to get
replies to emails asking for help.
- Original Message -
From: "Chad Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [users] Microsoft says Open Office.org 10 years behind
On 3/7/06,
- Original Message -
From: "Joe Hogan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [users] Microsoft says Open Office.org 10 years behind
Another problem is a lack of support. What 800 number do you call at 2 am
on Saturday n
On 3/9/06, Max Haltermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Why would you need a help desk, when you can ask
> users@openoffice.org ?
>
The same reason peopl need a help desk where there's the Microsoft Knowledge
Base
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;en-us;KBHOWTO
And the dozens
Gregory L. Forster wrote:
A while ago, I wrote an email: I have two computers. One in the dining
room has Microsoft Office and the one in my basement office has
OpenOffice.org 2.0.1. In the dining room, using Excel, I created a
spreadsheet. It was a large spreadsheet . I wanted to do some d
On Thursday 09 March 2006 11:48, Robin Laing wrote:
>Gregory L. Forster wrote:
>> A while ago, I wrote an email: I have two computers. One in the
>> dining room has Microsoft Office and the one in my basement office
>> has OpenOffice.org 2.0.1. In the dining room, using Excel, I
>> created a spre
Chad,
Kudos for making some good arguments. However, I do believe you have
contradicted yourself. Earlier in this thread you stated:
>>retraining the location of a few buttons and options from one version
of MSO to the next is one thing - retraining a entirely new way of
handling Mail Mer
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