On Sep 7, 2005, at 4:08 AM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
> I have another example, that is a bit similar.
> It's from La Guitarre Royalle (1671) on p. 94, last line bars 1-4.
Tried to check this in my LGR Minkoff. It goes from page 84 to page
101 which is the penultimate page! Anyone else have this?
By 'highest' does nor R mean closest to the player's head/
"Up" and "down" usually refer to the position on the instrument in playing
position. You move down the fingerboard - towards the floor - although you are
going up in terms of pitch. If the treble strings were on the bass side they
> > Pesori - he has probably copied Foscarini in Galeria musicale.
>
> The tuning check is not the same. The fact that tuning charts are all
> similar doesn't say they are copied.
Still don't clearly mention octave stringing.
> I took it from 'Recreazioni armoniche' Now I see that it is probably
Monica,
Thank you for this long reply - I am now feeling terribly guilty because I am
very well aware of the historical literature, the various tunings proposed in
modern times (Pinnell et al) and the state of the current debate. My aim in
asking these questions of perhaps the leading autho
> Pesori - he has probably copied Foscarini in Galeria musicale.
The tuning check is not the same. The fact that tuning charts are all
similar doesn't say they are copied.
> I don't
> think he mentions octaves in Lo srigno armonico.
I took it from 'Recreazioni armoniche' Now I see that it is p
Further to the below, grtfl if you cld respond to my earlier message on
precisely this matter: I'm not always convinced by yr procrustean analysis.
I hope I am not trying to enforce uniformity by violent methods - which is
how my dictionary defines procrustean!
It is difficult to expl
> > That is exactly why you can't prove that one method of stringing rather
> than
> > another is intended.
>
> Indeed. That is why I don't see what proves French tuning for Corbetta
1643.
In the end you can't prove anything either way.
> Can you please give more information on exactly that subj
> > If you wanted to avoid string break you wouldn't start with the 5th
course
> > at all. If you tune the 5th course too high, when you get to the 1st
> > course - ping - off it goes!
>
> Still that is what the instructions say: 'tune the fifth course to a
> convenient pitch' or 'the fifth may
Monica,
Grateful if you cld explain on what historic basis you restrict yourself to
just including open courses when playing the triad: harmony of this period had
become much richer with chords of the 7th and 9th and various inversions with
added notes eg simultaneous 5 and 6 on, say, a Gm cho
> But the open courses with Foscarini were serious, and I said it's
certainly
> on the edge. If you allow me, I have another example, that is a bit
similar.
> It's from La Guitarre Royalle (1671) on p. 94, last line bars 1-4. Should
we
> include the 1st course in all the chords?(e.g. second beat
> > As you haven't seen it, other than in two manuscripts copied in the 18th
> > century you can't evaluate it. All that you can say is that you know
> > nothing about it. So much of what you say simply ignores that fact
that
> we
> > have a very incomplete picture of what was really happeni
> > With some fantasy that would be possible for French tuning. If some
> extra
> > verbal explication about first using the high string and then the low
> one.
> >
> > And how were they to know that there were high octave strings on the 4th
> and
> > 5th courses - since these are not mentioned a
>
> As you haven't seen it, other than in two manuscripts copied in the 18th
> century you can't evaluate it. All that you can say is that you know
> nothing about it. So much of what you say simply ignores that fact that
we
> have a very incomplete picture of what was really happening.
Oh no,
> Sometimes I'm not sure whether you are serious either! I thought at first
> you were joking about including all the open courses in Foscarini -
because
> I am always saying that should. Still not sure..
In my country we don't use expressions like 'pun intended'.
But the open courses with F
Wasn't it the supposed charm of the five course guitar
> > that we do not always get what we expect?
>
> That is exactly why you can't prove that one method of stringing rather
than
> another is intended.
Indeed. That is why I don't see what proves French tuning for Corbetta 1643.
Can you pleas
Monica,
Further to the below, grtfl if you cld respond to my earlier message on
precisely this matter: I'm not always convinced by yr procrustean analysis.
rgds
Martyn
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Then Corbetta is to blame, he does that sort of thing all the time.
Not Co
> Within few years someone will prove that they
> > used
> > > an octave e'' to the first course.
> >
> > This is complete nonsense,
>
> Indeed, that's what it is.
Sometimes I'm not sure whether you are serious either! I thought at first
you were joking about including all the open courses in F
> Then Corbetta is to blame, he does that sort of thing all the time.
Not Corbetta - You! Alfabeto chords do not have a functional bass note - or
rather they are all in root position. This is simply an F minor chord.
>
> Indeed unsatisfactory. But where is the d from the fourth course going? N
> > In the third bar it goes onto the 2nd course -
But don't forget that from here to the end most of the notes on the 4th
course will also sound an octave higher - creating a completely different
treble line from what you imagine.
it doesn't matter that
> there's no strict voice leading through
>
> > > They actually work just as well for the "French" tuning. The 5th
course
> > is
> > > tuned in unison at the upper octave. When it is stopped at the 5th
> fret,
> > > the thin string of the 4th course - which is next to it - can be tuned
> in
> > > unison with it. When the 4th course is s
> I wouldn't know. The pieces by Colista for guitar that I've seen are
> mediocre. I happen to Like Bartolotti and Corbetta
As you haven't seen it, other than in two manuscripts copied in the 18th
century you can't evaluate it. All that you can say is that you know
nothing about it. So mu
I agree!, which is why I'm almost persuaded to use low basses on the 4th and
5th for pre-1671 Italian stuff
Martyn
Lex Eisenhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In the third bar it goes onto the 2nd course - it doesn't matter that
there's no strict voice leading throughout.
> In the third bar it goes onto the 2nd course - it doesn't matter that
there's no strict voice leading throughout. As said many emls earlier, the
style is melody and flourishes with interspersed chords and odd accompanying
notes when he best considers. It is, in my view, the real genius of Corbe
>
> For starters that would be a really bad bass line and completly spoils the
> cadential effect.
Then Corbetta is to blame, he does that sort of thing all the time.
>
> With the "French" tuning chord P would be in root position with F in the
> bass. The bass note of the next bar is definite
> They actually work just as well for the "French" tuning. The 5th course
is
> tuned in unison at the upper octave. When it is stopped at the 5th fret,
> the thin string of the 4th course - which is next to it - can be tuned in
> unison with it. When the 4th course is stopped at the 5th fret, th
> > It's a pity that Sanz didn't tell anything about the rest of Italy.
Sanz'
> > book is published long after people like Bartolotti and Corbetta had
left
> > for France (and Britain).
>
> So what?
I wouldn't know if he meant to speak of those Great Masters (from the
north...) that had left long
In the third bar it goes onto the 2nd course - it doesn't matter that there's
no strict voice leading throughout. As said many emls earlier, the style is
melody and flourishes with interspersed chords and odd accompanying notes when
he best considers. It is, in my view, the real genius of Corbet
> How about the context? If we would suppose the tuning with 2 bourdons, the
P
> chord in the bar before would be 6-4, the bass connecting to the c in the
> 2nd bar of the line.
For starters that would be a really bad bass line and completly spoils the
cadential effect.
With the "French" tuning
> > The fundemental problem, it seems to me, is that because of the
> > peculiarity of the instrument, either solution sounds reasonably
> > acceptable.
>
> My doubts rest on different grounds. There are many books, also ones by
> Corbetta, of battuto-pizzicato music that include tuning charts. It
> I don't think we can say that he met Corbetta or Granata in Rome. Sanz
> thought very high of Corbetta and he may even have heared him somewhere.
> (Interesting thought).
Sanz says that he studied the guitar with Colista. He was clearly familiar
with works published by Foscarini, Kapsberger,
How about the context? If we would suppose the tuning with 2 bourdons, the P
chord in the bar before would be 6-4, the bass connecting to the c in the
2nd bar of the line. That chord would be c minor (root) and the next G major
in 6-3. The top melody is likely to be on the 4th c. How about the thir
ps Lex would send it again.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Lex Eisenhardt ; Vihuela Net
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini/Corbetta - low basses
> Thank you for this summary of your views Lex.
>
> After reading it I went
ent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini/Corbetta - low basses
> Thank you for this summary of your views Lex.
>
> After reading it I went to Corbetta 1648 and, indeed, the style of
writing (especially the use of chords on the three 'lowes
> I do, of course, well understand that modern general practice
> is for low basses to be 'closest to the floor' (hence my continuation
> dots..), my reason in raising this matter with you was that
> if strict part writing in BC was expected on the 17thC gtr
> (as, I understand, is yr view -
Thank you Lex,
Regarding posn of low octave on 4th and 5th courses:
I do, of course, well understand that modern general practice is for low basses
to be 'closest to the floor' (hence my continuation dots..), my reason in
raising this matter with you was that if strict part writing in BC
Thank you fr ths Lex,
I take yr points and, in particular, that Sanz was only recording his
recollection of Roman practice. Nevertheless, does it not represent a
compelling piece of contemporary (allbeit reported some 20 yrs after his visit)
evidence for re-entrant stringing rather than octave
>
> Just for clarification: when recommending the re-entrant tuning doesn't
Sanz (1674) remark that earlier guitarists (esp in Italy) used it?
Presumably this from his earlier time in Rome where he met Colista,
Corbetta, Granata and thus, one supposes, based his observation on a direct
recollectio
son
To: Lex Eisenhardt ; Vihuela Net
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini/Corbetta - low basses
> Thank you for this summary of your views Lex.
>
> After reading it I went to Corbetta 1648 and, indeed, the style of
writing (especially the use of chords on t
n the upper octave first.
I haven't got time to respond to the rest of the message, which doesn't seem
to be complete. Perhaps Lex would send it again.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Lex Eisenhardt ; Vihuela Net
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 9:36 AM
Su
After my message below
Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:04:35 +0100
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: "vihuela"
From: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini/Corbetta - low
t;[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Vihuela Net
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini/Corbetta - low basses
> Thank you for this summary of your views Lex.
>
> After reading it I went to Corbetta 1648 and, indeed, the style of
writing (especially the use of cho
Maybe Lex forgot to send it to the list?
> Thank you for this summary of your views Lex.
>
> After reading it I went to Corbetta 1648 and, indeed, the style of
writing (especially the use of chords on the three 'lowest' courses) does
seem rather different to his post 1671 stuff. I had previously
I don't seem to have received Lex's latest message. Perhaps I have been
black-balled. Can you send it again?
Sanz says that guitarists in Rome use only thin strings. He doesn't comment
on what guitarists elsewhere in Italy did - presumably because he didn't
know. But Foscarini, Bartolotti and
Thank you for this summary of your views Lex.
After reading it I went to Corbetta 1648 and, indeed, the style of writing
(especially the use of chords on the three 'lowest' courses) does seem rather
different to his post 1671 stuff. I had previously thought this was a just a
stylistic (ie ea
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