On Jan 13, 2005, at 10:01 AM, Andy Budd wrote, in part:
hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website
really just data? So why can't present it all using tables?
Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that
this
discussion is all about.
Why? How can you say
The point is that it is not layout table.
Of course it's a layout table. You're using a table so you can lay out
your labels next to your inputs all nice and neat.
No, it is what you suggest. Original post is not about that. Have you read
it?
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
***
Part of the point of using CSS for layout is it gives us the ability
to separate the content from the presentation. Slapping a form into
table cells doesn't allow this. It makes it much harder for instance
to restyle the form so the labels appear above, rather than next to
the form inputs.
I t
I missed a bit of text
On 13 Jan 2005, at 18:18, Paul Connolley wrote:
If I can possibly allow you to stretch your imaginations for a moment.
Imagine me presenting you with a set of axes on some graph paper for a
line/scatter plot and asking you to put your information onto it. It
just wouldn't
On 13 Jan 2005, at 16:47, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
The point is that it is not layout table.
Well, to be pedantic, a table is all about layout. Layout of
information.
It has semantic value.
I really hate that statement.
It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and
contains repea
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
The point is that it is not layout table.
Of course it's a layout table. You're using a table so you can lay out
your labels next to your inputs all nice and neat. It doesn't contain
any data yet, just a bunch of form inputs. It's not data, it's a means
of laying out a dat
for code's sake.
Iain
--
Iain Gardiner
http://www.firelightning.com
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: 12 January 2005 22:39
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG]
If you want to use tables to lay out your forms (or anything else for
that matter) then go for it.
The point is that it is not layout table. It has semantic value.
It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and
contains repeating sets of data.
hairs and getting semantic, isn't
Mike Foskett wrote:
Sorry Andy,
I'll have to agree to disagree.
Personally speaking, the use of a table to layout tabular input is as
valid as using a table to layout tabular output.
and
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
I think that inputs in a table are ok.
This is tabular data, although not output, but in
CTED]
site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 13 January 2005 09:55
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote:
> Creating a method of output without a
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:01:38 +, Andy Budd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think that inputs in a table are ok.
This is tabular data, although not output, but input, but the
structure certainly is tabular.
To read a table user needs to understand its structure
(associate content with headings, navi
Pringle, Ron wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm coming onto this thread late, so I might be misinformed
as to
what you're trying to accomplish. So you have a form with a variable
number
of fields depending on how many travelers are to be insured, correct?
With a
maximum of 50?
Ah, now I understand what Ted i
Ted Drake wrote:
I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty,
but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people
registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going
to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight. A table
would
make
On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote:
Creating a method of output without an equivalent method of input
seems more than oversight.
Forms are a means of input. Tables are a means of displaying tabular
data.
Input and output mechanisms rarely have to be the same. I input data to
a compute
G'day
Name:
That's just rubbish. What the heck...?
This sort of thing really is just replacing one inappropriate markup
(tables) for another (divs and spans with css styling) and actually
*diminishing* the structure...if anything, proper elements
should be used...
I'd have to side with Pa
ailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:39 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in
a form?)
Iain Gardiner wrote:
> They are only "semantically correct" when used within specific
Iain Gardiner wrote:
They are only "semantically correct" when used within specific contexts.
Too many people confuse semantics (the implicit meaning of markup) with
valid html (correct code). They are two completely different sides of the
same coin. If it doesn't matter to you, then you're a mem
member of the wrong
list.
--
Iain Gardiner
http://www.firelightning.com
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: 12 January 2005 21:28
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Ca
Ryan Nichols wrote:
To me tabular means...tabular. Take a look at most real-world forms.
DMV, tax forms, you name it. Mostly all tabular. The form is broken up
into logical groups / cells indicating a relationship of relationship
through the structure.
Yes I know fieldsets also create a group/rel
the method
off Simplebits.com. Labels in , inputs in . Not sure how it works
out semantically though.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Alex Katechis
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 2:24 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Can I u
PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:13 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a
form?)
> Andy:
> If forms were meant to be tabular they'd have fr's and fd's.
> Therefore data o
Andy:
If forms were meant to be tabular they'd have fr's and fd's.
Therefore data output in tabular form is okay but data input is not.
Hi,
Sorry if I quoted you out of context Andy (I don't have the original
message), but I have a question regarding why forms should or should not
be considered t
Alex Katechis wrote:
[...]
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/practicalcss/
[...]
Name:
That's just rubbish. What the heck...?
This sort of thing really is just replacing one inappropriate markup
(tables) for another (divs and spans with css styling) and actually
*diminishing* the structu
> I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty,
> but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people
> registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going
> to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight.
> Having 50 labels that
A group of related form controls really belong together in a fieldset
with a legend. Each control can then be labelled correctly. Additional
'how to use' instructions can be provided in the title attribute of each
form control.
Example:
Please select your age
18-24
25-34
@Ted
...perhaps
l their be any feedback to the screen
reader that the input is meant to handle the age of a traveler?
-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 10:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On 12
Ted:
Don't hide labels with display:none. Screen readers don't see it either.
I'd suggest something more like:
.hidden {width:0; height:0; overflow:hidden; font-size:1px}
Or use a method that shifts the text off screen to the left.
Maybe consider the approach below even if it has too many
rg
Subject: RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
I have tried hiding labels in the past. But I came across very inconsistent
behavior. Some labels would show, some wouldn't. I was using display:none.
I'm sure there was something else going on in my code, but it seemed like
the incon
On 12 Jan 2005, at 16:42, Ted Drake wrote:
I have tried hiding labels in the past. But I came across very
inconsistent behavior. Some labels would show, some wouldn't. I was
using display:none. I'm sure there was something else going on in my
code, but it seemed like the inconsistency in browser
w and
wrap the td's inside the label?
That doesn't sound like valid coding.
Perhaps I protesteth too much.
Ted
-Original Message-
From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:38 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Ca
> From: Andy Budd
[...]
> What I'm saying is that tables are meant to display tabular data
> however a form is an input mechanism, not data itself. Thus in my
> opinion it would be incorrect to use a table to layout a form.
Yup, that's how I've usually looked at it as well.
> allowing people t
On 12 Jan 2005, at 10:47, Mike Foskett wrote:
Andy Budd wrote:
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular
data, it's an input mechanism.
Er... Agreed.
I was of the opinion, perhaps incorrectly, that the form in question
was intended to input tabular data hence the tab
e
display remains uncluttered.
mike 2k:)2
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 12 January 2005 10:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a fo
Mike Foskett wrote:
Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.
You say that like it's fact when it's really a matter of opinion.
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular
data, it's an input mechanism.
It seems crazy to me that people will come up with spurio
Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.
For accessibility I'd suggest using a label on each input but hide it visually
using one of the standard techniques.
Group
Age Range
Number of travellers
Trip cost per person
Group 1
Age Range
rg
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
Ted Drake wrote:
> How can I use a table and still validate for accessibility? Will it be a
> problem with xhtml?
Ted, try here:
http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/accessible-form-bu
Ted Drake wrote:
How can I use a table and still validate for accessibility? Will it be a problem with xhtml?
Ted, try here:
http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/accessible-form-builder.asp?type=table
Jeff
**
The discussion list for http://
Hi All
We have a use for a table inside a form. We want to sell a group travel
insurance product and many of the questions are simple entries and their may be
a large number of people on a trip. To put each person in an individual
fieldset and then repeat this would be overkill.
I think a table
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