Hi, > I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe, > but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human > parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same > skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki
Whether SMW fits into the "Wikimedia universe" is being decided by its users which over the years had different requirements and objectives and therefore is not always placed well in the MW development cycle or MW mainstream. > that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for SMW > sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them harder > to maintain. SMW is fully independent of any skin (as far as I'm aware of) but of course some query result formatter requires more detail when it comes to skin support than others but this doesn't relinquish any functionality of SMW-core. > One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would solve > multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW > support mobile users. One reason to choose the Chameleon skin is that it opens a path to build responsive elements with a "standard" on smw.org without relying on the WMF's MobilFrontend extension. > I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM > organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could > collaborate on this project. This is what Stephan did and not being too tightly coupled [0] to MW or its environment has other advantages (follow semver versioning, support different release cycle, have proper dependency support etc.) > As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and WikiData, > which I know many people are interested in (access control being the other > point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts). Using SMW-core with VE should not pose any issue but I'm not sure about SF and VE. Access control was never a real focus of either SMW or MW. If people want to access WD data via SMW then this has to be done as an extension and is not planned as part of the SMW-core. In case you want to use the Wikibase software then you don't need to use the SMW software and visa-versa (at least I couldn't find any reason as to why someone want to install both). > Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good On a more general note, SMW as a software (aside from its logo) does not have any appearance but of course the "product" SMW has an appearance in form of its website smw.org. Users of SMW are diverse and no longer stand for a single "I want to be look a Wikipedia" user group therefore SMW as a product has to change to represent those groups and attract other potential users. Honestly, the current website can not be used to make a product statement, it serves as pool that hosts and collects documentation. > to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW extensions SMW-core is skin agnostic therefore sharing any skin specific details would divert from the current policy. It does come with some CSS rules but those are SMW specific and unless someone can point to where this is not the case, SMW-core should work on any skin. > such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW > using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing > components as much as possible. I'm not sure on how extending SMW with Javascript fits into the discussion to replace the skin on smw.org. If people are really interested in supporting SMW as product platform then I would expect community members to appoint themselves as sponsor to drive the discussion, help to transform content (rewrite templates etc.), and bring the website into a position that would invite users to browse the site. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(computer_programming) PS: As far as I understand, the user of smw.org would be able to switch to the "old" Vector skin as registered user. Cheers On 10/21/14, david mason <vid_semediawiki-de...@zooid.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Maybe I am running with this, but it would benefit the community to make > these efforts generally reusable. > > I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe, > but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human > parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same > skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki > and certain important functionality will be present. Though generally most > people don't know or care, some core editors may; one one project I > switched to a decent menu based skin and had to switch back due to outcry. > For me I want to help people craft knowledge and having the facilities up > front is helpful. > > On the other hand, MW's skin is pretty uninspiring. But moving away from it > means you lose access to the usability initiative and other enhancements > that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for SMW > sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them harder > to maintain. > > One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would solve > multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW > support mobile users. > > I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM > organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could > collaborate on this project. > > As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and WikiData, > which I know many people are interested in (access control being the other > point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts). > > Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good > to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW extensions > such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW > using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing > components as much as possible. > > If there is an effort to raise funds for this my company could contribute > some. > > Thanks! > > David > > > > On 20 October 2014 04:02, Markus Krötzsch <mar...@semantic-mediawiki.org> > wrote: > >> On 20.10.2014 09:05, Krabina Bernhard wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > regardless of the skin used, I think it's worthwile to have a look at >> some sites we should aim to match regarding their appearance, e. g. >> > >> > http://www.drupal.org/ >> > https://wordpress.org/ >> > http://www.joomla.org/ >> > https://www.atlassian.com/ >> >> You are right. We really need to up our game there a little in terms of >> professional appearance. Looking at these very professional websites >> (and taking into account how much time it takes to do such a thing >> properly), we need to think about how to implement this. We do have a >> number of powerful components available (Chameleon, all the Bootstrap >> basics, I also have some not-yet-released extra code to use further >> Bootstrap features on the Wiki), but it will still be work to use that >> on our site (change table-based layouts on wiki pages; choose fonts, >> colours, images, and textures; style key elements; redesign site >> navigation to go with a collapsing menu, ...). How could we best move >> forward to put this into practice, ideally before the end of this year? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Markus >> >> >> > ----- Am 17. Okt 2014 um 11:58 schrieb Stephan Gambke >> > s7ep...@gmail.com: >> > >> >> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because I >> >> use it myself. >> >> >> >> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have done >> >> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue >> >> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the >> >> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some >> >> code I think I can use. :) >> >> >> >> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to >> >> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix >> >> (patches welcome). >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Stephan >> >> >> >> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch < >> mar...@semantic-mediawiki.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >> >>> >> >>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap >> >>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right now >> to >> >>> build a site (to be published soon). >> >>> >> >>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in >> CSS >> >>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so >> there >> >>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP -- >> >>> assuming >> >>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly. >> >>> >> >>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It >> >>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if >> >>> we >> >>> switch now. >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> >> >>> Markus >> >>> >> >>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote: >> >>>> Hi, >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on >> >>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of >> >>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the >> >>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to >> >>>> use >> >>>> MW/SMW in different environments. >> >>>> >> >>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil >> >>>> requirements >> >>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic >> >>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase) >> >>>> therefore >> >>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to >> >>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site. >> >>>> >> >>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how >> >>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell >> >>>> to >> >>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its >> >>>> appearance. >> >>>> >> >>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon >> >>>> [1] >> >>>> >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F >> >>>> >> >>>> Cheers >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>>> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. >> >>>> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. >> >>>> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push >> notifications. >> >>>> Take corrective actions from your mobile device. >> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list >> >>>> semediawiki-u...@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> >>>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. >> Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. >> Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications. >> Take corrective actions from your mobile device. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho >> _______________________________________________ >> Semediawiki-devel mailing list >> Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. 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