thanks for the response James, that clears a lot of things up.
I'm aware of coupling issues and wouldn't suggest creating any
dependencies. What I'm trying to say is offering a developed skin could be
a good advantage for users to enhance their sites too. Sites that use SMW
are also part of the product (in the sense referred here) so just like
Google's Material push, the consistency "out of the box" would help as well
as developing an association. Committing to Bootstrap is a strong choice,
but some of its components combine functionality which people would like to
take advantage of, and the style could be quite different than other places
in the site. Considering this helps to make the look and feel process
easier.
With regard to extending SMW with Javascript, it's not exactly a skin
specific issue, though perhaps worth considering in context of building on
Bootstrap, generally when creating this kind of extension which might start
with the straightforward API it can be quite a diversion to go to the
extension level, though it's otherwise an area with many opportunities for
contribution (thinking of facet browsing and visualization in particular).
With regard to using WikiData, I've often wanted to be able to pull in a
current list of countries, industries, etc and within the 'semantic' idea
that SMW originally defined itself by this would be a worthwhile emphasis.
Outside the scope of a skin though. (=
David
On 20 October 2014 21:51, James HK <jamesin.hongkon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe,
> > but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human
> > parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same
> > skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki
>
> Whether SMW fits into the "Wikimedia universe" is being decided by its
> users which over the years had different requirements and objectives
> and therefore is not always placed well in the MW development cycle or
> MW mainstream.
>
> > that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for
> SMW
> > sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them
> harder
> > to maintain.
>
> SMW is fully independent of any skin (as far as I'm aware of) but of
> course some query result formatter requires more detail when it comes
> to skin support than others but this doesn't relinquish any
> functionality of SMW-core.
>
> > One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would
> solve
> > multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW
> > support mobile users.
>
> One reason to choose the Chameleon skin is that it opens a path to
> build responsive elements with a "standard" on smw.org without relying
> on the WMF's MobilFrontend extension.
>
> > I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM
> > organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could
> > collaborate on this project.
>
> This is what Stephan did and not being too tightly coupled [0] to MW
> or its environment has other advantages (follow semver versioning,
> support different release cycle, have proper dependency support etc.)
>
> > As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and
> WikiData,
> > which I know many people are interested in (access control being the
> other
> > point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts).
>
> Using SMW-core with VE should not pose any issue but I'm not sure
> about SF and VE. Access control was never a real focus of either SMW
> or MW.
>
> If people want to access WD data via SMW then this has to be done as
> an extension and is not planned as part of the SMW-core. In case you
> want to use the Wikibase software then you don't need to use the SMW
> software and visa-versa (at least I couldn't find any reason as to why
> someone want to install both).
>
> > Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good
>
> On a more general note, SMW as a software (aside from its logo) does
> not have any appearance but of course the "product" SMW has an
> appearance in form of its website smw.org.
>
> Users of SMW are diverse and no longer stand for a single "I want to
> be look a Wikipedia" user group therefore SMW as a product has to
> change to represent those groups and attract other potential users.
>
> Honestly, the current website can not be used to make a product
> statement, it serves as pool that hosts and collects documentation.
>
> > to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW
> extensions
>
> SMW-core is skin agnostic therefore sharing any skin specific details
> would divert from the current policy. It does come with some CSS rules
> but those are SMW specific and unless someone can point to where this
> is not the case, SMW-core should work on any skin.
>
> > such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW
> > using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing
> > components as much as possible.
>
> I'm not sure on how extending SMW with Javascript fits into the
> discussion to replace the skin on smw.org.
>
> If people are really interested in supporting SMW as product platform
> then I would expect community members to appoint themselves as sponsor
> to drive the discussion, help to transform content (rewrite templates
> etc.), and bring the website into a position that would invite users
> to browse the site.
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(computer_programming)
>
> PS: As far as I understand, the user of smw.org would be able to
> switch to the "old" Vector skin as registered user.
>
> Cheers
>
> On 10/21/14, david mason <vid_semediawiki-de...@zooid.org> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Maybe I am running with this, but it would benefit the community to make
> > these efforts generally reusable.
> >
> > I understand SMW is no longer trying to fit into the Wikimedia universe,
> > but it still honours the MW approach of edits and source being human
> > parseable and benefits from ongoing MW enhancements. And using the same
> > skin as Wikipedia immediately lets people know they are on a (real) wiki
> > and certain important functionality will be present. Though generally
> most
> > people don't know or care, some core editors may; one one project I
> > switched to a decent menu based skin and had to switch back due to
> outcry.
> > For me I want to help people craft knowledge and having the facilities up
> > front is helpful.
> >
> > On the other hand, MW's skin is pretty uninspiring. But moving away from
> it
> > means you lose access to the usability initiative and other enhancements
> > that use core MW components. It would be a substantial disadvantage for
> SMW
> > sites to not be able to easily use these enhancements, and make them
> harder
> > to maintain.
> >
> > One mitigation could be to lightly adapt the mobile skin. This would
> solve
> > multiple problems in having a less clunky appearance yet also helping SMW
> > support mobile users.
> >
> > I realize it's political but if there is an objective for the WM
> > organization to work with related efforts, maybe some MW designers could
> > collaborate on this project.
> >
> > As well as fitting into a progression plan with VisualEditor and
> WikiData,
> > which I know many people are interested in (access control being the
> other
> > point where SMW can't really compare to peer efforts).
> >
> > Finally, for the sake of efficiency and consistency it would also be good
> > to have the skin share appearance and functionality with the SMW
> extensions
> > such as semantic forms. And I am among many people who are extending SMW
> > using Javascript and we'd like to be able to connect with existing
> > components as much as possible.
> >
> > If there is an effort to raise funds for this my company could contribute
> > some.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > On 20 October 2014 04:02, Markus Krötzsch <mar...@semantic-mediawiki.org
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 20.10.2014 09:05, Krabina Bernhard wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > regardless of the skin used, I think it's worthwile to have a look at
> >> some sites we should aim to match regarding their appearance, e. g.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.drupal.org/
> >> > https://wordpress.org/
> >> > http://www.joomla.org/
> >> > https://www.atlassian.com/
> >>
> >> You are right. We really need to up our game there a little in terms of
> >> professional appearance. Looking at these very professional websites
> >> (and taking into account how much time it takes to do such a thing
> >> properly), we need to think about how to implement this. We do have a
> >> number of powerful components available (Chameleon, all the Bootstrap
> >> basics, I also have some not-yet-released extra code to use further
> >> Bootstrap features on the Wiki), but it will still be work to use that
> >> on our site (change table-based layouts on wiki pages; choose fonts,
> >> colours, images, and textures; style key elements; redesign site
> >> navigation to go with a collapsing menu, ...). How could we best move
> >> forward to put this into practice, ideally before the end of this year?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Markus
> >>
> >>
> >> > ----- Am 17. Okt 2014 um 11:58 schrieb Stephan Gambke
> >> > s7ep...@gmail.com:
> >> >
> >> >> Well, I plan to maintain the skin for a while yet, not least because
> I
> >> >> use it myself.
> >> >>
> >> >> I want to finally release a version 1.0 this weekend. Should have
> done
> >> >> that a long time ago, but always put it off. There is one major issue
> >> >> left that I want to fix before, which is the un-responsiveness of the
> >> >> navbar. Should not be too hard to do, somebody recently sent me some
> >> >> code I think I can use. :)
> >> >>
> >> >> There are some rough edges left, but they are mostly related to
> >> >> styling of special pages and the like and should be easy to fix
> >> >> (patches welcome).
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> Stephan
> >> >>
> >> >> On 17 October 2014 10:40, Markus Krötzsch <
> >> mar...@semantic-mediawiki.org> wrote:
> >> >>> Hi,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Good idea. Chameleon is great (also because of the nice Bootstrap
> >> >>> styling that becomes available on all pages). I am using it right
> now
> >> to
> >> >>> build a site (to be published soon).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A big advantage with Chameleon is that most customizations happen in
> >> CSS
> >> >>> or by inserting HTML into the page through configuration files. so
> >> there
> >> >>> are fewer dependencies on how MW does their skinning in PHP --
> >> >>> assuming
> >> >>> that Chameleon is always updated to support this properly.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> My only concern would be that Chameleon is still classified Beta. It
> >> >>> would be good to know if we can hope for future support for this if
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> switch now.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Cheers,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Markus
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 16.10.2014 19:52, James HK wrote:
> >> >>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'm calling for some opinions on replacing the "old" Vector skin on
> >> >>>> smw.org with something fresh. Stephan in his relentless pursuit of
> >> >>>> making MediaWiki more usable to non-Wikipedia users created the
> >> >>>> Chameleon skin [0] which seems more suitable to those who want to
> >> >>>> use
> >> >>>> MW/SMW in different environments.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> SMW no longer tries to be a product that seeks to fulfil
> >> >>>> requirements
> >> >>>> from either WMF or Wikipedia to be used as encyclopaedic semantic
> >> >>>> content management (that's now the job of Wikidata/Wikibase)
> >> >>>> therefore
> >> >>>> using the "Vector" skin somehow appears to be outdated by trying to
> >> >>>> look like the good old Wikipedia site.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Furthermore, MW 1.24 (to be released soon) made some changes on how
> >> >>>> skins are deployed [1] and it might be a good time to say farewell
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>> the "old" skin and rediscover SMW's identity by changing its
> >> >>>> appearance.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Chameleon
> >> >>>> [1]
> >> >>>>
> >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.24#Skins_no_longer_loaded_after_upgrade.3F
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Cheers
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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