Ashraf, I know that you've been reading a lot of material from you comments, but BPEL is not the only technology out there. What do you think about rules engine? What about graphical flow chart designers (even though they now seems have faded out). What about JBoss's seams?
"B" in BPEL is "business", but there's actually no special feature in the language that converts what it executes to become a business process. :-) H.Ozawa 2009/12/14 Ashraf Galal <[email protected]>: > > > Please see my comments in-line. > > Anne Thomas Manes wrote: >> +1 Steve. >> >> Ashraf -- I don't think I could disagree with you more. >> While I think BPM and SOA ( or more precisely, process orientation and >> service orientation) are complementary, a good architect always >> recognizes that all "orientation" mindsets must be used appropriately. >> And you should also recognize that these mindsets are based on >> analysis and design principles--not on technologies. > >> BPEL is >> irrelevant to both BPM and SOA. > How come?!! > > *BPMN enables us to draw the representation of a business process, which > is then mapped into the executable BPEL code, and executed directly on > the SOA platform. > * > > *SOA is about business content, business processes, aligning IT with the > business, and optimizing the business processes.* > > Please correct me if i am wrong. > ** >> As Steve says, you may decide to >> implement a service using BPEL, but you could just as easily do so >> using Java, C#, Ruby, or Erlang. Techology selection is a >> project-specific decision that occurs very late in a BPM project. >> > I am sorry I disagree with you. > This is a technology point of view. Not from the enterprise point of view. > How the Java or other languages can support the human interaction, as > for example, if we build a business process ? > Please notice that these languages is low-level compared to business > processes. > > Therefore, we sometimes refer to them as ‘*programming-in-the-small’*. > > *SOA approach to development is sometimes called > /programming-in-the-large. /* > > Composition of services (using BPEL) has been designed for such a purpose. > >> Key "technologies" that support BPM include Six Sigma and Lean >> methodologies, swim lanes, process maps, ARIS, Visio, etc. These are >> >> the tools business people use to analyze existing processes and >> explore/simulate new ways to accomplish their work and achieve their >> desired business outcomes. Some aspects of their proceses can be >> automated. Others can't. Some aspects of achieving business outcomes >> are delivered via better insight -- not through processes. (in which >> case adopting a purely process-centric perspective is detrimental) > If you speak about flowcharts, it is ok. > But business needs more than that, business want to reduce the IT gap time. >> After analyzing their processes, business people submit requests to IT >> to implement application software to automate certain aspects of the >> process. IT people then use a variety of modeling notations to design >> solutions, e.g., BPMN or UML. From there, they write/produce code. >> Some people attempt to generate code from their models. I have yet to >> find anyone who supports that code who still believes in the >> model/code roundtripping myth. >> > I can tell that I reversed engineering Java code when I joined a project > at its end stage on 2004, to understand the project and to finalize it > and deliver it to their end user. > It takes a few weeks and lot of efforts but without that it would take a > months. > I modified some of the model and forward engineer it to code again, and > with little support from the developers, we achieved our goals. > I do believe in model/code roundtripping myth and I think there are some > believe on it too. > It is not just a theory, but we have to open our minds up to new > concepts, study them without precluding anything, then we can select the > best fits us. > I think I learned that from you Anne. > > All the best > Ashraf Galal > >> Anne >> >> >> >> On Sunday, December 13, 2009, Steve Jones <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Lets plan planet fail.... >>> >>> 2009/12/13 Ashraf Galal <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> The key technology of SOA is BPEL. >>>> >>> #FAIL >>> >>> Even if we say that SOA is a technology thing its really rather hard >>> to say that a PROCESS language is THE key technology of SERVICE >>> orientation. Its like saying that procedures are the key technology >>> of OO. >>> >>> >>>> This language minimizes the semantic gap between the process model and >>>> the actual execution code. >>>> >>> I might let you have this one, its not right (it can reduce it a bit >>> in certain cases rather than being a blanket statement) >>> >>> >>>> BPEL enables business processes to be executed directly. >>>> >>> #FAIL >>> >>> See "Christmas SOA" which explains why what you execute is rarely what >>> the business process is, this is the difference between the perceived >>> process and the executed process. BPEL works at the executed level. >>> >>> >>>> Process models, preferably developed in BPMN, can manually, >>>> semi-automatically, or automatically be translated into BPEL. >>>> >>> Not a fail but.... >>> >>> BPMN can also be translated into Java, C, assembler or many other >>> languages. Now its _sometimes_ easier to do it into BPEL but that >>> doesn't mean >>> >>> Also "manually" translated means there are significant gaps. >>> >>> >>>> With BPEL, various activities, called partner links, are performed by >>>> services. >>>> >>> I really think we all know this stuff. Are you Scott Nudds? >>> >>> >>> >>>> Therefore, an important aspect is the decomposition of the business >>>> process and its mapping to the services. >>>> >>>> Services are the central artifacts of SOA architecture. We use services >>>> to model automated business activities or human tasks. >>>> >>> #FAIL >>> >>> Nope, the CAPABILITIES model the activities or tasks, the SERVICES >>> provide the mechanism for accessing those capabilities. >>> >>> >>>> SOA enables much tighter integration between business processes and >>>> software architecture. Many tools on the market today provide >>>> bidirectional lifecycle support. >>>> >>>> This means that changes made to the model (BPMN) are automatically >>>> propagated to implementation (BPEL), and vice versa. >>>> >>> #FAIL >>> >>> Ever worked on a project that used these things? You export from BPMN >>> then you have to tweak the BPEL and from that point onwards the >>> roundtrip is almost always doomed. >>> >>> >>> >>>> If we do not use SOA and Services we will end up with a lot of problems >>>> because BPMN is designed specifically for SOA. >>>> >>>> There is nothing perfect, but we have to set up our goals and work to >>>> achieve them. >>>> >>>> Also we have to recognize that SOA changes the traditional development >>>> life cycle. instead of analysis, design, implementation and testing, we >>>> will have business process modeling using BPMN, composition, testing and >>>> monitoring. >>>> SOA changes our life and people do not accept change easily. >>>> >>> #FAIL >>> >>> What you are talking about is _not_ change its simple the old school >>> of "technologies first" implementation which also assumes some form of >>> mystical technology stack which has a vendors current hot ticket item >>> at the top. In your case you see it as BPEL/BPMN but others would >>> look at CEP as being another option for that top stack. >>> >>> The key piece of SOA is thinking about the services FIRST and then >>> thinking about which of the capabilities of those services are BEST >>> delivered using processes and which are BEST delivered in other ways. >>> >>> In this way you look at the business first and don't assume the >>> technologies. >>> >>> >>> >>>> All the best >>>> >>>> >>> Planet #FAIL population: >>> >>> >>>> Ashraf Galal >>>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> cordau wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ashraf, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> With these two technologies, plus some additional ones, SOA provides: >>>>>> >>>>>> - A language—BPEL—for direct execution of business processes >>>>>> >>>>>> - Round-trip mapping between the process models in BPMN, and their >>>>>> executable representation in BPEL >>>>>> >>>>>> With this, SOA considerably reduces the semantic gap between the >>>>>> business processes and application systems. >>>>>> >>>>>> BPMN enables us to draw the representation of a business process, which >>>>>> is then mapped into the executable BPEL code, and executed directly on >>>>>> the SOA platform. >>>>>> >>>>> You should know that not all BPMN processes are mappable to standard >>>>> BPEL (let alone being able to roundtrip). See >>>>> http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2009/11/19/bpmn-vs-bpel-are-we-still-debating-this/ >>>>> <http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2009/11/19/bpmn-vs-bpel-are-we-still-debating-this/> >>>>> for details. >>>>> >>>>> Active Endpoints, a BPMN and BPEL tools vendor, had to introduce a >>>>> proprietary extension to BPEL in order to support some BPMN processes. >>>>> See >>>>> http://www.activevos.com/indepth/f_technicalNotes/aa_ExtendingBPEL/ExtendingBPELWithLoopingTransitions.pdf. >>>>> <http://www.activevos.com/indepth/f_technicalNotes/aa_ExtendingBPEL/ExtendingBPELWithLoopingTransitions.pdf.> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! 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