Steve Jones wrote: "Having two sentences with the word "business" in them doesn't mean they are linked. SOA is about _thinking_ of solutions in a service oriented way. If you consider BPMN as the important piece and the primary approach then you are doing PROCESS oriented architecture(POA)"
If you call it "POA" or "Business SOA", what is important is to see the linkage between all of these architectures. A great deal of an SOA's success depends on properly defined business processes. "You are kidding right? How does Java, a technology which is behind a huge amount of websites out there and which is the execution engine for most process engines. Human interaction is easy in Java." Java is a great technology with no doubts. But keeping the business process in sync with code it is not an easy task with Java and .Net and takes months. Please see such standards like BPEL4People to understand what I mean. User interactions in business processes can be *_simple_, such as approving certain tasks or decisions*, or *_complex_, such as delegation, renewal, escalation, nomination, or chained execution. * *To interleave user interactions with BPEL processes, we can use a _workflow service_, that interacts with BPEL processes using standard WSDL interfaces, as any other service. * This way, the BPEL process can assign user tasks and wait for responses by invoking the workflow service using the same syntax as any other service. After the BPEL process has assigned tasks to users, users can act on the tasks by using the appropriate applications (Java or any other languages) The applications communicate with the workflow service by using WSDL interfaces or another API (such as Java) to acquire the list of tasks for selected users, render the appropriate user interfaces, and return the results to the workflow service, which then forwards them to the BPEL process. It is difficult to have such functionality in programming languages! "Partly true but also have you ever tried doing complex business rules in BPEL/BPMN? It really doesn't work. Have you tried doing complexlayouts for user/human interaction?" Yes. too much.and it is work if you add business Rule engine to them. The problem is not in the BPM. Th problem that there are some difficulties in mapping the BPMN to the BPEL automatically without human interaction. This would be solved when the vendor tools comply with BPMN 2.0. ^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BPMN#cite_note-BPMN20BETA1-6> The vision of BPMN 2.0 is to have one single specification for a new Business Process Model and Notation that defines the notation, metamodel and interchange format but with a modified name that still preserves the "BPMN" brand. The first beta version of the specification was released in September, 2009. The final release is scheduled for June, 2010. "ALL implementation technologies are low-level in areas where they aren't appropriate." True. For example: */_Oracle has partnered with IDS Scheer's Aris_/ to provide Oracle BPA Suite as an addition to its overall suite of products for BPM and SOA*. This addition allows a user to model and simulate processes in BPMN within the Oracle BPA Suite, and then later take the information into Oracle's BPEL Process server for execution (*using Rules for enforcing policies*), Business Activity Monitoring for monitoring, and Enterprise Service Bus for creating the standards-based service integration layer. This suite provides a platform for users to model business processes using BPMN, and to analyze and optimize the developed business processes using simulation techniques to identify the potential bottlenecks, before creating an execution model for these processes, to be implemented inside SOA-based Orchestration engines. Can we do that with any languages? Some will say "Yes", and they are right but imagine the effort to build and maintain such concept, is it cost-justifiable? what about the maintenance cost? Time to develop? Why should we invent the wheel again and again? Business needs such tools and need to be educated about it. It is an IT responsibility to do that not to resist because of the code tendency! Business cannot bear any more. IT cannot drive the business any more, IT is driven by business now and for the future. "Indeed it has, this doesn't mean that its the only technology or the most important one. Some solutions require composition, others require orchestration others require co-ordination." I never said that it is the only technology at all, but it is the best technology dealing with such issues, in my opinion. "Its not a myth but it does require a huge amount of management overhead and tends to become unstable in support unless the support people are incredibly high level. It also tends not to be roundtripping but a unidirectional generation." It is roundtripping trust me. If the people wants to learn to use it, it will be useful for all of them. All the best Ashraf Galal > 9/12/13 Ashraf Galal <[email protected]>: > >> Please see my comments in-line. >> >> Anne Thomas Manes wrote: >> >>> +1 Steve. >>> >>> Ashraf -- I don't think I could disagree with you more. >>> While I think BPM and SOA ( or more precisely, process orientation and >>> service orientation) are complementary, a good architect always >>> recognizes that all "orientation" mindsets must be used appropriately. >>> And you should also recognize that these mindsets are based on >>> analysis and design principles--not on technologies. >>> >>> BPEL is >>> irrelevant to both BPM and SOA. >>> >> How come?!! >> >> *BPMN enables us to draw the representation of a business process, which >> is then mapped into the executable BPEL code, and executed directly on >> the SOA platform. >> * >> >> *SOA is about business content, business processes, aligning IT with the >> business, and optimizing the business processes.* >> > > Having two sentences with the word "business" in them doesn't mean > they are linked. SOA is about _thinking_ of solutions in a service > oriented way. If you consider BPMN as the important piece and the > primary approach then you are doing PROCESS oriented architecture > (POA) > > Business SOA, then POA all of these terminolgy is great but you have to connect them to each other. Too much terms with the same meaning but no practicle linkage between them. I think it is enough >> Please correct me if i am wrong. >> ** >> >>> As Steve says, you may decide to >>> implement a service using BPEL, but you could just as easily do so >>> using Java, C#, Ruby, or Erlang. Techology selection is a >>> project-specific decision that occurs very late in a BPM project. >>> >>> >> I am sorry I disagree with you. >> This is a technology point of view. Not from the enterprise point of view. >> How the Java or other languages can support the human interaction, as >> for example, if we build a business process ? >> > > You are kidding right? How does Java, a technology which is behind a > huge amount of websites out there and which is the execution engine > for most process engines. > > Human interaction is easy in Java. > > >> Please notice that these languages is low-level compared to business >> processes. >> > > Partly true but also have you ever tried doing complex business rules > in BPEL/BPMN? It really doesn't work. Have you tried doing complex > layouts for user/human interaction? > > ALL implementation technologies are low-level in areas where they > aren't appropriate. > > >> Therefore, we sometimes refer to them as ‘*programming-in-the-small’*. >> >> *SOA approach to development is sometimes called >> /programming-in-the-large. /* >> >> Composition of services (using BPEL) has been designed for such a purpose. >> > > Indeed it has, this doesn't mean that its the only technology or the > most important one. > > Some solutions require composition, others require orchestration > others require co-ordination. > > >>> Key "technologies" that support BPM include Six Sigma and Lean >>> methodologies, swim lanes, process maps, ARIS, Visio, etc. These are >>> >>> the tools business people use to analyze existing processes and >>> explore/simulate new ways to accomplish their work and achieve their >>> desired business outcomes. Some aspects of their proceses can be >>> automated. Others can't. Some aspects of achieving business outcomes >>> are delivered via better insight -- not through processes. (in which >>> case adopting a purely process-centric perspective is detrimental) >>> >> If you speak about flowcharts, it is ok. >> But business needs more than that, business want to reduce the IT gap time. >> >>> After analyzing their processes, business people submit requests to IT >>> to implement application software to automate certain aspects of the >>> process. IT people then use a variety of modeling notations to design >>> solutions, e.g., BPMN or UML. From there, they write/produce code. >>> Some people attempt to generate code from their models. I have yet to >>> find anyone who supports that code who still believes in the >>> model/code roundtripping myth. >>> >>> >> I can tell that I reversed engineering Java code when I joined a project >> at its end stage on 2004, to understand the project and to finalize it >> and deliver it to their end user. >> It takes a few weeks and lot of efforts but without that it would take a >> months. >> I modified some of the model and forward engineer it to code again, and >> with little support from the developers, we achieved our goals. >> I do believe in model/code roundtripping myth and I think there are some >> believe on it too. >> > > Its not a myth but it does require a huge amount of management > overhead and tends to become unstable in support unless the support > people are incredibly high level. It also tends not to be > roundtripping but a unidirectional generation. > > Steve > > >> It is not just a theory, but we have to open our minds up to new >> concepts, study them without precluding anything, then we can select the >> best fits us. >> I think I learned that from you Anne. >> >> All the best >> Ashraf Galal >> >> >>> Anne >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, December 13, 2009, Steve Jones <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Lets plan planet fail.... >>>> >>>> 2009/12/13 Ashraf Galal <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>> >>>>> The key technology of SOA is BPEL. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> #FAIL >>>> >>>> Even if we say that SOA is a technology thing its really rather hard >>>> to say that a PROCESS language is THE key technology of SERVICE >>>> orientation. Its like saying that procedures are the key technology >>>> of OO. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> This language minimizes the semantic gap between the process model and >>>>> the actual execution code. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I might let you have this one, its not right (it can reduce it a bit >>>> in certain cases rather than being a blanket statement) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> BPEL enables business processes to be executed directly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> #FAIL >>>> >>>> See "Christmas SOA" which explains why what you execute is rarely what >>>> the business process is, this is the difference between the perceived >>>> process and the executed process. BPEL works at the executed level. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Process models, preferably developed in BPMN, can manually, >>>>> semi-automatically, or automatically be translated into BPEL. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Not a fail but.... >>>> >>>> BPMN can also be translated into Java, C, assembler or many other >>>> languages. Now its _sometimes_ easier to do it into BPEL but that >>>> doesn't mean >>>> >>>> Also "manually" translated means there are significant gaps. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> With BPEL, various activities, called partner links, are performed by >>>>> services. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I really think we all know this stuff. Are you Scott Nudds? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Therefore, an important aspect is the decomposition of the business >>>>> process and its mapping to the services. >>>>> >>>>> Services are the central artifacts of SOA architecture. We use services >>>>> to model automated business activities or human tasks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> #FAIL >>>> >>>> Nope, the CAPABILITIES model the activities or tasks, the SERVICES >>>> provide the mechanism for accessing those capabilities. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> SOA enables much tighter integration between business processes and >>>>> software architecture. Many tools on the market today provide >>>>> bidirectional lifecycle support. >>>>> >>>>> This means that changes made to the model (BPMN) are automatically >>>>> propagated to implementation (BPEL), and vice versa. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> #FAIL >>>> >>>> Ever worked on a project that used these things? You export from BPMN >>>> then you have to tweak the BPEL and from that point onwards the >>>> roundtrip is almost always doomed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> If we do not use SOA and Services we will end up with a lot of problems >>>>> because BPMN is designed specifically for SOA. >>>>> >>>>> There is nothing perfect, but we have to set up our goals and work to >>>>> achieve them. >>>>> >>>>> Also we have to recognize that SOA changes the traditional development >>>>> life cycle. instead of analysis, design, implementation and testing, we >>>>> will have business process modeling using BPMN, composition, testing and >>>>> monitoring. >>>>> SOA changes our life and people do not accept change easily. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> #FAIL >>>> >>>> What you are talking about is _not_ change its simple the old school >>>> of "technologies first" implementation which also assumes some form of >>>> mystical technology stack which has a vendors current hot ticket item >>>> at the top. In your case you see it as BPEL/BPMN but others would >>>> look at CEP as being another option for that top stack. >>>> >>>> The key piece of SOA is thinking about the services FIRST and then >>>> thinking about which of the capabilities of those services are BEST >>>> delivered using processes and which are BEST delivered in other ways. >>>> >>>> In this way you look at the business first and don't assume the >>>> technologies. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> All the best >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Planet #FAIL population: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Ashraf Galal >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> cordau wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Ashraf, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> With these two technologies, plus some additional ones, SOA provides: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - A language—BPEL—for direct execution of business processes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Round-trip mapping between the process models in BPMN, and their >>>>>>> executable representation in BPEL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With this, SOA considerably reduces the semantic gap between the >>>>>>> business processes and application systems. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BPMN enables us to draw the representation of a business process, which >>>>>>> is then mapped into the executable BPEL code, and executed directly on >>>>>>> the SOA platform. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> You should know that not all BPMN processes are mappable to standard >>>>>> BPEL (let alone being able to roundtrip). See >>>>>> http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2009/11/19/bpmn-vs-bpel-are-we-still-debating-this/ >>>>>> <http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2009/11/19/bpmn-vs-bpel-are-we-still-debating-this/> >>>>>> for details. >>>>>> >>>>>> Active Endpoints, a BPMN and BPEL tools vendor, had to introduce a >>>>>> proprietary extension to BPEL in order to support some BPMN processes. >>>>>> See >>>>>> http://www.activevos.com/indepth/f_technicalNotes/aa_ExtendingBPEL/ExtendingBPELWithLoopingTransitions.pdf. >>>>>> <http://www.activevos.com/indepth/f_technicalNotes/aa_ExtendingBPEL/ExtendingBPELWithLoopingTransitions.pdf.> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> Yahoo! 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