George,
Robert does have a point, in that the system can be fooled to
some degree.
A couple of random comments, then I'll shut up.
1. Your handicap (your index as TFlan correctly pointed out)
represents your potential ability. I hear a few comments about
people complaining that they are being penalized because they
"aren't that good". Well, yes they are that good. Their scores
reflect their potential.
2. Robert pointed out "T" (Tournament) scores, which are one way
the system has to detect sandbaggers. If you shoot well in a
formal tournament that score is going to stick around for a year
and can influence your index. If you have two T scores that are
at least 3.0 strokes better than your normally computed index,
the T scores can be used to determine your index.
3. The Northern California Golf Association, which I am a member
of, keeps a database of scores from tournaments they sponsor,
which includes inter-club play. The database goes back at least
two years, probably more. If you score "too well" in one of
their tournaments they are going to notice it and you can get
your index restricted. IIRC, a number of tournaments in Texas
instituted a similar system several years ago to nail
sandbaggers.
4. Your "club", where your handicap is established, should have
an active handicap committee. Baggers need to be sanctioned. We
had a guy who fairly regularly was doing things like shooting a
93, writing a 98 on the score card, and posting a 99. His index
was restricted for a year to his lowest two tournament scores,
which represented a significant reduction.
5. If you aren't a member of a "club", be wary of a money game
where you give strokes (even if you are a member, still be wary
:-). TFlan had a good method for dealing with this situation.
/Ed
On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:13 -0700, "GEORGE HUSON"
<geohu...@flash.net> wrote:
Of course if you are a 0 then the last 10 scores would be used
with the previous ten scores and the lowest 10 would be used for
your current handicap. So you may end up still a 0 or a 1 not
likely a 3
Now if you practice for the next 3 weeks, we can assume you are
not just going to hit balls but actually play a few rounds. If
you are practicing and playing you may actually shoot some rounds
below your 0 handicap over the next 3 weeks. Since handicaps are
re-calculated every month very few of your 10 high scores
may actually be used to figure your index.
Since most people only play 2 times a week or less, then to get
your 3 handicap you would have to not practice, just play cold
for at least 2 1/2 months. You take 2 1/2 months off & I would
be surprised if you are are a 0 even with 3 weeks of practice.
George Huson
ByGeorge Custom Clubs
--- On Wed, 8/5/09, Robert Devino <robertdev...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Robert Devino <robertdev...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 3:32 PM
Yes Tom I have been to school for golf management and know
exactly how an index in calculated. That's why I know they are
all so inaccurate as to be useless. Example. Right now if I took
my last ten scores I would be playing to about a 3. That's no
practice time in between and more often than not going from the
car to the tee with just a little putting practice. So lets say
I get into a tournament that is 3 weeks away and I go out and
practice to prepare for that tournament 3 times each week. Do you
really think my index with no practice time is a good reflection
of my ability after some serious prep work? I am not sand
bagging my rounds now just not practicing so I am not as
consistent as I would be with practice. That could take 2 -3
strokes off easily. Now instead of playing to a 3 I am around a
0 or should be but my card says 3. with out doing anything
wrong or illegal I just took the system for 3 strokes. Even if I
did this again and they brought into play the T factor for my
index, if I go back to playing rounds with no practice in between
my index would self adjust back up to the 3.
Sincerely,
Robert Devino
14252 Delano St.
Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
(818) 908-1691
____________________________________________________________
From: Tom Flanagan <tflans...@hotmail.com>
To: shoptalk <shoptalk@mail.msen.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:06:15 AM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
Golfers don't have a handicap per se. They have a GHIN - a golf
handicap index number. The course handicap is derived by applying
the index against the published slope chart of the course. The
index is derived from a formula that uses the lowest ten of the
past 20 scores. A "temporary handicap" is calculated with 5
posted scores. I can provide the formula if you'd like but its
really not necessary for purposes of this discussion.
So a "10" isn't a 10 at every course. Suppose a golfer's index is
8.6 - 9.4. He's a 10 handicapper at a course with a slope of 124.
But suppose he plays a course with a slope of 112. He's a 9
there. Or if he plays at a course sloped at 142 he's a 12.
In order to control to some extent, baggers, maximum scores
allowed are part of the system. For example, golfers with
handcaps from 10 through 19 may post no more than a 7 on any
hole. So if a guy makes a 10 on a hole in competition, the score
is counted for the tournament but no more than 7 is posted for
handicap purposes. The process is called "ESC" or Equitable
Stroke Control.
There's no doubt that guys can and will cheat and that's a shame.
But you argument about slopes is and handicap is totally
incorrect. And by the way "course rating" has nothing to do with
handicap. A course rated at 72 say, is meaningless to the
handicap system. That's just the number that a theorectical
scratch golfer with shoot on a theoretical "perfect" day.
As for courses maturing - USGA or affiliated associations re-rate
courses on request. Our course here has be re-rated a couple
times over the past dozen years.
You may want to take a look at USGA's">USGA's site, or SCGA or
NCGA or whatever association you like to learn about what
handicapping and rating courses is all about. You can simply by
writing obtain a copy of USGA's "The Handicap System Reference
Guide". It's clearly written and easy to understand.
TFlan
Oh and BTW; "handicap" is one word
____________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 01:11:33 -0700
From: robertdev...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
First of all to all you guys talking about KZG the gemini was a
faulty head from the start. They have no more left so they won't
replace it any more. For any one that care Steve won his
unemployment lawsuit with her and all the crap she spread around
trhe industry about him having quit was a load of pure bull.
Now for this handy cap thing. when a course is rated for slope
and course rating it is done at a certain distance. A specified
yardage for the course. the trees are young and not too tall a
lot of the times. The rough is young as well and as developed and
narley in a lot of cases. Then the course grow a little older
and the trees mature and cut off corners and the thatch in the
rough get all tangley. Teh course gets tougher to play as it
matures. Tehn you have the guys doing the course setup in the
moring putting the red flag up in fron of the green and for some
reason they move the tee box forwaard as well. Do this on a few
holes and you can take several hundred yarsds off the courses
overall distance that the slope and course ratings are based
on. This will have an effect on the handicaps for all that play
there on a regular basis. We have a course here that has an
alternative tee box for one of the par 5s they use once in a
while that adds almost 75 yards to the whole. You think that
wouldn't change the slope of the course sure it would. Or was
the course originally sloped with that tee box and now it's
playing easier than the registered slope scewing everyone handi
cap on a regular basis?
Now add in the human factor of gimmes, mall it agains, pick and
place in the middle of the summer sand baggers and the ones that
just don't know the rules and ground there clubs in hazards as
well as other violations like taking a free drop from a none
paved cart path, and what do you really have????
A system that is so subjective that it's not worth a dime.
If I were to play Tiger I would first of not bet more thanI could
afford to loose play him straight up and hope he shoots one of
his 78s. If he beats me which he probably would (unless he hits
his driver like he did at the British Open) He will have beaton
me because he deserved too. He works harder at than I do! (and by
the way once you get under par your a + handy cap numbner not a
- number. Just so we don't get people confused.) Basically
tournaments should be broken up by age brackets, Handi caps
should be tossed and if you want to win so badly work at it. I
don't care how old you get (too a point) Put for doe and work on
the short game. You will even out with the young whipper
snappers, Hell I hit 50 this year I am feeling it. Handy cap
systems can't be kept with any integrity and should be used.
Now I know there are some folks out there that actually play by
the rules but they are still subjecdt to course set up errors. I
would bet that about 80% of the handi caps out there are off by 3
to 4 strokes on the low side.try this the next time you play with
some one new. Just for kicks try to get them to show you their
handi cap card. If you play on a course that has a slope of 118
to 124 a 10 handi capper should play the course at around 12
over. See what he really shoots. I bet you it would be around 15
to 16 over!
Sincerely,
Robert Devino
14252 Delano St.
Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
(818) 908-1691
____________________________________________________________
From: "ontargetg...@comcast.net" <ontargetg...@comcast.net>
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 11:49:19 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
KZG only thinks of themselves. I stop doing business with them 6
years ago. Bang is another one that I flushed down the toilet.
Pat On Target Golf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Taylor Bruce" <beeteeg...@verizon.net>
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 11:51:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
Eastern
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
I had a 355 Gemini 1 break and now I can't get anyone to answer
the phone or replay to an email. They had some great products
but I could not deal with their business model.
-bt
___________
Bee Tee Golf
Bruce Taylor
On Aug 4, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Robert Devino wrote:
The Gemini 2, all of them broke just about and the witch knew
they were going too and she sold them to you guys any way. Why
any one does business with her I will never know????
Sincerely,
Robert Devino
14252 Delano St.
Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
(818) 908-1691
____________________________________________________________
From: Don M <[1]...@mcluckie.net>
To: FastMail.FM WARNING: URL text and host don't match, possible
phishing attempt. URL disabled. Original
URL='http://us.mc822.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos
e?shopt...@mail">shopt...@mail">to=shopt...@mail.msen.com'.
Original text='shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com'. For more
information on phishing click here.
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 6:04:14 AM
Subject: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
Robert or anyone,
Which Gemini 460 driver head was prone to breakage, the "I" or
the "II"?
-Don M
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