I'm NCGA as well. I was in SCGA for about 30 years. Moved north about 10 years
ago.
TFlan
From: e_ree...@mailup.net
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Handicap
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:53:02 -0700
George,
Robert does have a point, in that the system can be fooled to some degree.
A couple of random comments, then I'll shut up.
1. Your handicap (your index as TFlan correctly pointed out) represents your
potential ability. I hear a few comments about people complaining that they
are being penalized because they "aren't that good". Well, yes they are that
good. Their scores reflect their potential.
2. Robert pointed out "T" (Tournament) scores, which are one way the system
has to detect sandbaggers. If you shoot well in a formal tournament that score
is going to stick around for a year and can influence your index. If you have
two T scores that are at least 3.0 strokes better than your normally computed
index, the T scores can be used to determine your index.
3. The Northern California Golf Association, which I am a member of, keeps a
database of scores from tournaments they sponsor, which includes inter-club
play. The database goes back at least two years, probably more. If you score
"too well" in one of their tournaments they are going to notice it and you can
get your index restricted. IIRC, a number of tournaments in Texas instituted a
similar system several years ago to nail sandbaggers.
4. Your "club", where your handicap is established, should have an active
handicap committee. Baggers need to be sanctioned. We had a guy who fairly
regularly was doing things like shooting a 93, writing a 98 on the score card,
and posting a 99. His index was restricted for a year to his lowest two
tournament scores, which represented a significant reduction.
5. If you aren't a member of a "club", be wary of a money game where you give
strokes (even if you are a member, still be wary :-). TFlan had a good method
for dealing with this situation.
/Ed
On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:13 -0700, "GEORGE HUSON" <geohu...@flash.net> wrote:
Of course if you are a 0 then the last 10 scores would be used with
the previous ten scores and the lowest 10 would be used for your current
handicap. So you may end up still a 0 or a 1 not likely a 3
Now if you practice for the next 3 weeks, we can assume you are not
just going to hit balls but actually play a few rounds. If you are practicing
and playing you may actually shoot some rounds below your 0 handicap over the
next 3 weeks. Since handicaps are re-calculated every month very few of your
10 high scores may actually be used to figure your index.
Since most people only play 2 times a week or less, then to get
your 3 handicap you would have to not practice, just play cold for at least 2
1/2 months. You take 2 1/2 months off & I would be surprised if you are are a
0 even with 3 weeks of practice.
George Huson
ByGeorge Custom Clubs
--- On Wed, 8/5/09, Robert Devino <robertdev...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Robert Devino <robertdev...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 3:32 PM
Yes Tom I have been to school for golf management and know exactly
how an index in calculated. That's why I know they are all so inaccurate as to
be useless. Example. Right now if I took my last ten scores I would be playing
to about a 3. That's no practice time in between and more often than not going
from the car to the tee with just a little putting practice. So lets say I get
into a tournament that is 3 weeks away and I go out and practice to prepare for
that tournament 3 times each week. Do you really think my index with no
practice time is a good reflection of my ability after some serious prep work?
I am not sand bagging my rounds now just not practicing so I am not as
consistent as I would be with practice. That could take 2 -3 strokes off
easily. Now instead of playing to a 3 I am around a 0 or should be but my card
says 3. with out doing anything wrong or illegal I just took the system for 3
strokes. Even if I did this again and they brought into play the T factor for
my index, if I go back to playing rounds with no practice in between my index
would self adjust back up to the 3.
Sincerely,
Robert Devino
14252 Delano St.
Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
(818) 908-1691
From: Tom Flanagan <tflans...@hotmail.com>
To: shoptalk <shoptalk@mail.msen.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:06:15 AM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
Golfers don't have a handicap per se. They have a GHIN - a golf
handicap index number. The course handicap is derived by applying the index
against the published slope chart of the course. The index is derived from a
formula that uses the lowest ten of the past 20 scores. A "temporary handicap"
is calculated with 5 posted scores. I can provide the formula if you'd like but
its really not necessary for purposes of this discussion.
So a "10" isn't a 10 at every course. Suppose a golfer's index is
8.6 - 9.4. He's a 10 handicapper at a course with a slope of 124. But suppose
he plays a course with a slope of 112. He's a 9 there. Or if he plays at a
course sloped at 142 he's a 12.
In order to control to some extent, baggers, maximum scores allowed
are part of the system. For example, golfers with handcaps from 10 through 19
may post no more than a 7 on any hole. So if a guy makes a 10 on a hole in
competition, the score is counted for the tournament but no more than 7 is
posted for handicap purposes. The process is called "ESC" or Equitable Stroke
Control.
There's no doubt that guys can and will cheat and that's a shame.
But you argument about slopes is and handicap is totally incorrect. And by the
way "course rating" has nothing to do with handicap. A course rated at 72 say,
is meaningless to the handicap system. That's just the number that a
theorectical scratch golfer with shoot on a theoretical "perfect" day.
As for courses maturing - USGA or affiliated associations re-rate
courses on request. Our course here has be re-rated a couple times over the
past dozen years.
You may want to take a look at USGA's">USGA's site, or SCGA or NCGA
or whatever association you like to learn about what handicapping and rating
courses is all about. You can simply by writing obtain a copy of USGA's "The
Handicap System Reference Guide". It's clearly written and easy to understand.
TFlan
Oh and BTW; "handicap" is one word
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 01:11:33 -0700
From: robertdev...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
First of all to all you guys talking about KZG the gemini was a
faulty head from the start. They have no more left so they won't replace it
any more. For any one that care Steve won his unemployment lawsuit with her
and all the crap she spread around trhe industry about him having quit was a
load of pure bull.
Now for this handy cap thing. when a course is rated for slope and
course rating it is done at a certain distance. A specified yardage for the
course. the trees are young and not too tall a lot of the times. The rough is
young as well and as developed and narley in a lot of cases. Then the course
grow a little older and the trees mature and cut off corners and the thatch in
the rough get all tangley. Teh course gets tougher to play as it matures.
Tehn you have the guys doing the course setup in the moring putting the red
flag up in fron of the green and for some reason they move the tee box forwaard
as well. Do this on a few holes and you can take several hundred yarsds off
the courses overall distance that the slope and course ratings are based on.
This will have an effect on the handicaps for all that play there on a regular
basis. We have a course here that has an alternative tee box for one of the
par 5s they use once in a while that adds almost 75 yards to the whole. You
think that wouldn't change the slope of the course sure it would. Or was the
course originally sloped with that tee box and now it's playing easier than the
registered slope scewing everyone handi cap on a regular basis?
Now add in the human factor of gimmes, mall it agains, pick and
place in the middle of the summer sand baggers and the ones that just don't
know the rules and ground there clubs in hazards as well as other violations
like taking a free drop from a none paved cart path, and what do you really
have????
A system that is so subjective that it's not worth a dime.
If I were to play Tiger I would first of not bet more thanI could
afford to loose play him straight up and hope he shoots one of his 78s. If he
beats me which he probably would (unless he hits his driver like he did at the
British Open) He will have beaton me because he deserved too. He works harder
at than I do! (and by the way once you get under par your a + handy cap
numbner not a - number. Just so we don't get people confused.) Basically
tournaments should be broken up by age brackets, Handi caps should be tossed
and if you want to win so badly work at it. I don't care how old you get (too
a point) Put for doe and work on the short game. You will even out with the
young whipper snappers, Hell I hit 50 this year I am feeling it. Handy cap
systems can't be kept with any integrity and should be used.
Now I know there are some folks out there that actually play by the
rules but they are still subjecdt to course set up errors. I would bet that
about 80% of the handi caps out there are off by 3 to 4 strokes on the low
side.try this the next time you play with some one new. Just for kicks try to
get them to show you their handi cap card. If you play on a course that has a
slope of 118 to 124 a 10 handi capper should play the course at around 12 over.
See what he really shoots. I bet you it would be around 15 to 16 over!
Sincerely,
Robert Devino
14252 Delano St.
Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
(818) 908-1691
From: "ontargetg...@comcast.net" <ontargetg...@comcast.net>
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 11:49:19 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
KZG only thinks of themselves. I stop doing business with them 6
years ago. Bang is another one that I flushed down the toilet.
Pat On Target Golf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Taylor Bruce" <beeteeg...@verizon.net>
To: shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 11:51:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
Eastern
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
I had a 355 Gemini 1 break and now I can't get anyone to answer the
phone or replay to an email. They had some great products but I could not deal
with their business model.
-bt
___________
Bee Tee Golf
Bruce Taylor
On Aug 4, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Robert Devino wrote:
The Gemini 2, all of them broke just about and the witch knew they
were going too and she sold them to you guys any way. Why any one does
business with her I will never know????
Sincerely,
Robert Devino
14252 Delano St.
Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
(818) 908-1691
From: Don M <d...@mcluckie.net>
To: FastMail.FM WARNING: URL text and host don't match, possible
phishing attempt. URL disabled. Original
URL='http://us.mc822.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?shopt...@mail";>shopt...@mail">to=shopt...@mail.msen.com'.
Original text='shopt...@mail">ShopTalk@mail.msen.com'. For more information on
phishing click here.
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 6:04:14 AM
Subject: ShopTalk: KZG Gemini driver heads
Robert or anyone,
Which Gemini 460 driver head was prone to breakage, the "I" or the
"II"?
-Don M
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