Yep, That maths is more or less correct. However I'm not advocating something that will convey 500 passengers. Its a somewhat smaller number.
One of the problems that Australia has with the High-Speed-Train is that there won't be 500 passengers per service. That makes the whole conventional HST propositions unviable. The Solar Train has less passengers, but charges more. The number that I am working with is about 20-40 passengers. You can use your maths to calculate how long the train will be. With 40 passengers paying $150 per ticket (lets use 35) it comes to $5350 trip multiplied by two (up and down) then in the afternoon (x2) = $21,000 per day between Canberra and Sydney. For 360 days, that is a revenue of $7,560,000 per year. Each Train will cost $2.5M to build. We'll need about six to eight. Time to pay back the money will be about four years. Yes, there is a polluting and more uncomfortable bus service that runs for $15-35 on the same leg. David On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 5:42 PM, Clifford Heath <[email protected]>wrote: > David, > > Perhaps a small example would outline my concern. > > Supposing we had magical materials which weigh nothing, so we can disregard > the mass of the train and just consider the payload. Beginning with a > single person > then, say 100Kg, travelling at 100km/hr. Railways routinely climb slopes up > to 1 in > 11. Normally less, but 1 in 11 is a common maximum sustained climb. > > The power required for this hypothetical train to lift this person at this > rate is 2.5KW, > since they're rising 2.5m/s, with a weight of 970N. > > Now if this train has a solar cell with high efficiency, say generously > 18%, and it is > in full noonday sun with the cells on the optimum angle, they make about > 180W/m^2. > > That requires 14 square metres of solar cell, per person. With a weightless > train, > zero friction or drag, at noonday, with the cells angled correctly. > > Start factoring in the overheads, and you quickly reach a required 200m^2 > per > person. Carry 500 passengers, and a 5 metre-wide train would need to be > 20km > long, or one passenger every 40m of train length. This just *not* a > feasible size for > a train. Sure, this is a peak load while climbing a hill, and you'd be able > to serve > that load from batteries for some duration, but those 500 people and a > train of > comparable weight are still going to need 2.5MW to climb that hill. > > I could go on... there are a hundred other potential failures in this > proposal, but... > do you see why I'm skeptical? > > Clifford Heath. > > > On 30/01/2011, at 3:55 PM, David Lyon wrote: > > Hi Clifford, > > > I can give a preview yes, but not the whole mathematical equation. General > maths > > are ok.there are a few sensitive IP design solutions that I'm not going > into. > > > Firstly, my van in my garage has 7 seats, a 2 litre 90hp petrol motor. Its > good for > > 100kmh on the road. It weighs about 1700kg. Total weight for that with all > people > > is therefore about 2400kg. > > > In the old days, trains many trains were actually made from wood and had > wooden > > wheels. That kept the weight down. For 20 people we are aiming with > aluminium > > and aluminium honeycomb to get something for 900kg. Think what an aluminium > > 'tinny' boat weighs - four people can go in one of those and I've seen many > that > > weigh as little as 100kg. Think what a cessna or light plane weighs and how > they > > are constructed. > > > To carry 20 people, you need about 150kw to get up to speed. You're going > to > > need enough solar cells to generate that amount of power in a period of six > hours > > to go 300km and batteries to hold the charge. > > > Once the train is moving, it needs less power to keep going. When it is > running > > downhill it is recharging the batteries (regenerative). > > > Also, forget steel wheels. Think of something like mag-alloy or carbon > fibre. > > > "Conventional" trains, on the other hand, are 8000kg per carriage and have > four > > 150kw motors. Thats just too heavy to go and attach solar cells to and > expect it > > to work. > > > There's a whole lot of advances in battery technology like Lithium Ion > Polymer > > and advances in solar cells that mean the surrounding technology is much > moved > > on from where it was 5 years ago. > > > It's possible to get people moving along a track with solar cells.. > > > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Clifford Heath <[email protected]> > wrote: > > On 30/01/2011, at 10:43 AM, David Lyon wrote: > > I'm having trouble even getting a VC meeting with my Solar Train. I'm being > told "Since > > no such technology exists in the market.. (we have no time to even listen > to a pitch)" > > Train speeds in Australia are still 80kmh on average which is the same > > average speed as what you used to get in the late 19th century. > > If I can get an order for a full train, each train will be $2.5M so whilst > there is some risk > > there is also some potential to do things on the big scale working from a > small base. > > > David, > > > I'm not sure the numbers add up. Can you go through some of the > > arithmetic concerning the actual energy consumption and requirements > > of such a train? A lot of the ideas you've touted here seem to me to be > > a bit suspect in this department. A confident and competent mathematical > > presentation of the energy budgets would go a long way to convince me > > (and perhaps, VCs) that you know what you're talking about. > > > Clifford Heath. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach > Australia mailing list. > > > Guidelines on discussion: > http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e1303508d?hl=en%3Fhl%3Den > > > No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]<silicon-beach-australia%[email protected]> > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach > Australia mailing list. > > > Guidelines on discussion: > http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e1303508d?hl=en%3Fhl%3Den > > > No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]<silicon-beach-australia%[email protected]> > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach > Australia mailing list. > > Guidelines on discussion: > http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e1303508d?hl=en%3Fhl%3Den > > No lurkers! 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