I understand the tech argument, but just wondering, what problem does a solar train solve? Eg. Is electricity/diesel the major operating cost for current trains? Are trains a significant environmental burden? Why doesn't the argument for ultralight passenger carriages apply to existing diesel/electric trains?
On Jan 31, 8:57 pm, Mike Nicholls <[email protected]> wrote: > What if you laid the solar cells + batteries beside or in between the tracks > on the big hills and could pick up a charge when you needed it? > > Mike Nicholls > Elders Real Estate Mosman0411 222. 551 > Follow me on Twiiter.com/Mikenicholls88 > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 31/01/2011, at 8:46 PM, David Lyon <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Yep, > > > That maths is more or less correct. However I'm not advocating something > > that > > will convey 500 passengers. Its a somewhat smaller number. > > > One of the problems that Australia has with the High-Speed-Train is that > > there > > won't be 500 passengers per service. That makes the whole conventional HST > > propositions unviable. The Solar Train has less passengers, but charges > > more. > > > The number that I am working with is about 20-40 passengers. You can use > > your > > maths to calculate how long the train will be. > > > With 40 passengers paying $150 per ticket (lets use 35) it comes to $5350 > > trip > > multiplied by two (up and down) then in the afternoon (x2) = $21,000 per day > > between Canberra and Sydney. > > > For 360 days, that is a revenue of $7,560,000 per year. Each Train will cost > > $2.5M to build. We'll need about six to eight. Time to pay back the money > > will > > be about four years. > > > Yes, there is a polluting and more uncomfortable bus service that runs for > > $15-35 > > on the same leg. > > > David > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 5:42 PM, Clifford Heath <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > David, > > > Perhaps a small example would outline my concern. > > > Supposing we had magical materials which weigh nothing, so we can disregard > > the mass of the train and just consider the payload. Beginning with a > > single person > > then, say 100Kg, travelling at 100km/hr. Railways routinely climb slopes up > > to 1 in > > 11. Normally less, but 1 in 11 is a common maximum sustained climb. > > > The power required for this hypothetical train to lift this person at this > > rate is 2.5KW, > > since they're rising 2.5m/s, with a weight of 970N. > > > Now if this train has a solar cell with high efficiency, say generously > > 18%, and it is > > in full noonday sun with the cells on the optimum angle, they make about > > 180W/m^2. > > > That requires 14 square metres of solar cell, per person. With a weightless > > train, > > zero friction or drag, at noonday, with the cells angled correctly. > > > Start factoring in the overheads, and you quickly reach a required 200m^2 > > per > > person. Carry 500 passengers, and a 5 metre-wide train would need to be 20km > > long, or one passenger every 40m of train length. This just *not* a > > feasible size for > > a train. Sure, this is a peak load while climbing a hill, and you'd be able > > to serve > > that load from batteries for some duration, but those 500 people and a > > train of > > comparable weight are still going to need 2.5MW to climb that hill. > > > I could go on... there are a hundred other potential failures in this > > proposal, but... > > do you see why I'm skeptical? > > > Clifford Heath. > > > On 30/01/2011, at 3:55 PM, David Lyon wrote: > > >> Hi Clifford, > > >> I can give a preview yes, but not the whole mathematical equation. General > >> maths > >> are ok.there are a few sensitive IP design solutions that I'm not going > >> into. > > >> Firstly, my van in my garage has 7 seats, a 2 litre 90hp petrol motor. Its > >> good for > >> 100kmh on the road. It weighs about 1700kg. Total weight for that with all > >> people > >> is therefore about 2400kg. > > >> In the old days, trains many trains were actually made from wood and had > >> wooden > >> wheels. That kept the weight down. For 20 people we are aiming with > >> aluminium > >> and aluminium honeycomb to get something for 900kg. Think what an aluminium > >> 'tinny' boat weighs - four people can go in one of those and I've seen > >> many that > >> weigh as little as 100kg. Think what a cessna or light plane weighs and > >> how they > >> are constructed. > > >> To carry 20 people, you need about 150kw to get up to speed. You're going > >> to > > >> need enough solar cells to generate that amount of power in a period of > >> six hours > >> to go 300km and batteries to hold the charge. > > >> Once the train is moving, it needs less power to keep going. When it is > >> running > >> downhill it is recharging the batteries (regenerative). > > >> Also, forget steel wheels. Think of something like mag-alloy or carbon > >> fibre. > > >> "Conventional" trains, on the other hand, are 8000kg per carriage and have > >> four > >> 150kw motors. Thats just too heavy to go and attach solar cells to and > >> expect it > > >> to work. > > >> There's a whole lot of advances in battery technology like Lithium Ion > >> Polymer > >> and advances in solar cells that mean the surrounding technology is much > >> moved > >> on from where it was 5 years ago. > > >> It's possible to get people moving along a track with solar cells.. > > >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Clifford Heath > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 30/01/2011, at 10:43 AM, David Lyon wrote: > >> I'm having trouble even getting a VC meeting with my Solar Train. I'm > >> being told "Since > >> no such technology exists in the market.. (we have no time to even listen > >> to a pitch)" > >> Train speeds in Australia are still 80kmh on average which is the same > >> average speed as what you used to get in the late 19th century. > >> If I can get an order for a full train, each train will be $2.5M so whilst > >> there is some risk > >> there is also some potential to do things on the big scale working from a > >> small base. > > >> David, > > >> I'm not sure the numbers add up. Can you go through some of the > >> arithmetic concerning the actual energy consumption and requirements > >> of such a train? A lot of the ideas you've touted here seem to me to be > >> a bit suspect in this department. A confident and competent mathematical > >> presentation of the energy budgets would go a long way to convince me > >> (and perhaps, VCs) that you know what you're talking about. > > >> Clifford Heath. > > >> -- > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach > >> Australia mailing list. > > >> Guidelines on > >> discussion:http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e13... > > >> No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. > > >> To post to this group, send email to > >> [email protected] > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected] > >> For more options, visit this group at > >>http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en > > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach > >> Australia mailing list. > > >> Guidelines on > >> discussion:http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e13... > > >> No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. > > >> To post to this group, send email to > >> [email protected] > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected] > >> For more options, visit this group at > >>http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach > > Australia mailing list. > > > Guidelines on > > discussion:http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e13... > > > No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach > > Australia mailing list. > > > Guidelines on > > discussion:http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e13... > > > No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach Australia mailing list. Guidelines on discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia/msg/351e183e1303508d?hl=en%3Fhl%3Den No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en
