Marshall: It is a known fact that silver dust can cause Argyria; that silver protein can cause Argyria; that silver salts can cause Argyria. That this is not widely known outside of older doctors these days is that exposure to silver has been limited.
The real truth is that no research has been done with electro-colloidal silver. The fact that small concentrations are used, and thus any possible Argyria may take ten to twenty years to occur through daily use does not lessen what is known, and what is not known, and what people believe they know. How many references do you want? I have posted many previously, here's a few newer ones: http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic595.htm I don't think the 'ole conspiracy theory works in the case of this Professor of Medicine from Poland. The reason all of the research concerning Argyria points to metallic silver, silver protein, and silver salts is that these types of silver have been available for study and of interest to human health. That's the only reason. Again, it is COMMON knowledge that silver toxicity is fatal. This isn't something mysterious or new. You obviously didn't look at the references that I posted before, so I won't repeat them over and over. Here's a reprinted reference to Silver from the Merk manual: http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/toxic.htm Here's another example of the idea that metallic silver can cause Argyria: "Suzuki_H; Baba S; Uchigasaki S; Murase M (1993) Localized argyria with chrysiasis caused by implanted AP needles: Distribution and chemical forms of silver and gold in cutaneous tissue by electron microscopy and x-ray microanalysis. J Am Acad Dermatol Nov 29(5 Pt 2):833-837. Dept of Dermatol, Surugadai Nihon Univ Hospital, Tokyo, Japan. A case of localized argyria with chrysiasis caused by implanted AP needles in a 41-yr-old Japanese woman was studied by electron microscopy and x-ray microanalysis. Large amounts of Ag granules with Se and S were detected around eccrine secretory cells in much greater amounts than around ductal cells. Many granules were also observed along the outer edge of the basement membrane but never within cells or intercellular spaces. The granules were also present around blood vessels, lymphatics and nerve fibres and in elastic fibres. Small numbers of Au fragments were also seen, mostly within macrophages. Ag deposited extracellularly as selenide and sulphide, whereas free Au was found intracellularly." My position has always been stated clearly. I don't believe that there is significant risk of Argyria from taking reasonable amounts of quality low PPM colloidal silver. I believe that there is a difference between how the body handles electro-colloidal silver, even aside from the comparatively low concentrations consumed. However, this is founded in belief and not fact. I don't see anyone volunteering to inject .5 gram doses of silver into the blood, even if that means going on an IV drip. Since this has not been done, there is no real data to compare with the studies that have been done. I don't recommend that anyone exceed the EPA guidelines for CS consumption without good reason. In such situations, I always recommend internal cleansing programs and dietary supplementation. There is simply little need to do so. As far as anions being related to silver toxicity? That's just a bunch of made-up head-work. Anions might play a significant role in depositing silver in the body, but it has absolutely no relation to silver toxicity itself. Once the silver is deposited into body tissues, it is the silver that causes the toxicity. This type of thinking is resultant of insecure people sitting down and starting with the premise: I don't think CS causes Argyria, so how many different theories can I produce to support this idea? People who aren't comfortable saying "you know, this really hasn't been demonstrated" - and people who certainly know that they don't sell products with the truth, and therefore fool themselves as to sleep well at night. The problem is when you step up to the plate as an expert, and you make the choice to limit the information you are giving to people who trust you. How many cases of Argyria have been reported to you in the last six months? Likely, none. That is a byproduct of your life, not a reflection of reality. I've run into a total of five cases in the last six months... Four of which have to do with mild silver protein. One I reported to the list because it was of interest. That case was either caused by large silver particles, or by silver chloride.... Either of which indicate that electro-colloidal silver can possibly enduce Argyria, as silver chloride IS produced when electro-colloidal silver enters the body, and there are silver particles in CS. It may just take four to eight times as long.... Which would be about 20 to 40 years of daily high volume use ( 8 or 16 ounces daily ), in someone who may have a predisposition to Argyria, for whatever reason. I simply respect people enough to allow them to make their own decisions based on ALL available information - not just the information I am happy with. Generally speaking, the end user doesn't have an emotional attachment nor a financial interest in colloidal silver. Generally speaking, people can wade through the contradictory information and find a solution that they are comfortable with, and are glad to have access to the whole story, becuase they don't like their intelligence insulted. As far as the rest, generally speaking, toxicity starts at the liver. When silver starts coming out of your fingernails, it is indicative that the body is not eliminating it through normal channels. That's why I always use a 4 hour cycle when calculating doses of anything. It is a wise principle of natural medicine to always first and foremost consider the liver. Something changed between time A ( taking CS and no change in fingernails ) and time B. That's why it doesn't come out of the fingernails when one first starts using it. It's either a cumulation of silver, a decrease in the liver's ability to eliminate it, or a dietary deficiency that is causing the change. Believe me, I get it from all ends... The mild silver protein people are even worse! Venomous denial that mild silver protein can cause Argyria. Of further interest, if you look very careful into the legal world, you'll notice some legal firms now listing Argyria as an injury to inquire on as far as potential lawsuits go. There's no reason to get panicky or upset about the potential of Argyria, or the unknowns involved. The biggest problem comes from MISUNDERSTANDINGS, which would never occur in the first place if the person in question had all of the available data at their disposal, which, in EVERY single case I've come across, this information was held back by the promoters because they didn't feel the data was applicable to their product -- or their pocket book. The MSP people are particularly bad in this respect, as people tend to triple to quadruple suggested dosage levels. The MSP people don't feel this is their responsibility -- if people take four ounces of their product daily and develop problems. Like the individual who has a very mild case of Cosmetic Argyria from drinking Water OZ, cosmetic Argyria from electro colloidal silver, if it ever occured, would likely manifest nearly invisibly. Nuerological damage would likewise be nearly undetectable. Frankly, there is just no reason to consume so much silver as to accumulate nine grams of silver in the body. I continue to take the conservative approach, as there is no risk to health in doing so, and there is no sacrifice to the beneficial properties of CS. I can agree to disagree. Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: Marshall Dudley To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 8:43 AM Subject: Re: CS>Caffeine AVRA / Jason wrote: Summer: The idea that caffeine is in any way directly related to Argyria is patently false. I never said that caffine is related to argyria. Only that for compounds of silver to plate out on silver atoms to form larger clumps of silver requires a developer. This requirement is scientific fact. If you don't believe it then study some photo developing books. It is plain chemistry. If it plates out then a developer must be present. Now I said that caffine makes a fair developer, as do a large variety of tannic acid compounds. It is quite likely that some natural fluid of the body is also a developer, but as far as I know that has not been tested or verified. I prefer to work with facts and not speculation, and the fact is that caffine and tannic acid compounds are indeed developers. Are they necessary for argyria to develop, probably not, since there will be likely other developers present in low quantity. Will having large amounts of caffine or tannic acid compounds in the blood increase the formation of argyria? I believe that an educated guess is that they would since rapid silver plating out is believe to be necessary. If the silver is depositing in the fingernails, it is likely it has already started to accumulate internally, but this has not been conclusively demonstrated either. The only way to tell would be via biopsy or autopsy. Since it only accumulated in an area that was actively growing, how can you reach that conclusion for an already grown adult? If silver buildup reaches a toxic level interally it is lethal. I have never seen any evidence that silver is toxic, and certainly not lethal. What evidence do you have for this? Don't go quoting anything that used silver compounds, we all know some silver compounds are toxic. I can use the same logic to prove that carbon or nitrogen is lethal by using cyanide HCN as an example. The compound is not the same thing as the element. I can quote from an authoritive source that supports this. CRC Handbook, 52nd edition, page B-30: "While silver itself if non-toxic, most of it salts are poisonous due to the anions present. .... Silver has germacidal effects and kills many lower organisms effectively without harm to higher animals." This, I believe, would be nearly ( if not ) impossible with the use of low PPM colloidal silver, even with extremely large amounts of colloidal silver consumed daily over a lifetime. Such things were at one time documented with very high concentrations of silver compounds injected into the body. Extreme silver toxicity has severe nuerological and respiratory consequences. Once again, I have never seen any evidence or documentation of this for CS or silver metal. That is for silver compounds. You are doing the same thing the FDA does and try to confuse CS with silver compounds. They act totally different. No one argues with these facts with silver compounds, but to try and transfer the data over to CS is not legitimate without any supporting evidence, of which I have never seen any. I would assume that if CS were to cause neurological damage it would impare one's IQ. My IQ was around 100 last time I had it tested years ago. I just took another test a few weeks ago after taking CS for 4 years, and now it is reported as 135. Would neurological damage caue an IQ increase? I don't think so. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. Instructions for unsubscribing may be found at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: [email protected] Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
