Kristinka and Melena both have guides / filler compounds and allows a guide caching workflow, while filler compounds would be re-applied after the sim. Procedurals would be lovely though. I'm looking at this right now, would be great to hear some more opinions on which system would be better if simulation has to be a regular part of the workflow.
I'd love to see the best of both in a built in system, adapting the hair sculpting tools to strands, with occlusion and mirroring added to the painting tools, and sculpting using polygon shapes. On 14 February 2014 10:16, Felix Geremus <felixgere...@googlemail.com>wrote: > My problem with ICE based solutions is more on the caching & rendering > side. You have to cache each and every strandpoint. With a million hairs > and a few substeps for motionblur, cache files are gigantic. A good hair > system should cache only cache the guides, the actual hair (and maybe even > styles like small frizz etc) should be generated at rendertime with a > procedural. As far as I know this is how Yeti and even Shave&Haircut in > Maya works. > > > 2014-02-14 6:52 GMT+01:00 Mathias N <mdawn...@gmail.com>: > > *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >> *) It should be ICE compliant >> *)I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, so a >> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >> version to be sold. >> >> I personally don't see much of a problem with integrating the system with >> ICE, and with regards to simulation it would be very difficult to separate >> while maintaining the same level of adaptability that ICE provides. The >> Strand Dynamics Framework that ships with ICE is slow by design, its >> limiting factor being the setup rather than ICE itself. A proper simulation >> system within ICE would likely have to consist of a single closed node that >> would not allow any customization beyond its inputs, but it would still be >> favorable to trying to completely separate it. >> >> Take the Strand Collision Framework mentioned at the beginning of this >> thread for instance. It was built on-top of the stock strand dynamics >> framework, and separates the various phases of simulation into actual nodes >> in ICE. It's decent, but attempting to keep everything separated and open >> to modification proved to be a major flaw preventing it from ever really >> working properly. >> >> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that exists >> for this purpose. >> >> A given. >> >> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the right >> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >> time !). >> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >> >> Being able to groom hair without being limited by mesh resolution is >> pretty much a must. Weight maps are nice for animated effects, but their >> reliance on mesh resolution is a pain. I see them as only remaining for >> painting attributes that need to be animated. >> >> Also, sculpting tools? for hair? >> >> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number of >> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >> >> So multiple layers of hair in the same point cloud? That's an interesting >> thought, and certainly doable. >> >> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons that >> appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and weld) i just >> wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the hair >> system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: paint/erase >> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >> >> As I am still looking at ICE integration as the holy grail here, meaning >> strand guides and various attributes would be generated by the plugin and >> output to ICE, where they could be utilized by any number of nodes. I >> suppose the only solution that would satisfy this requirement is to build >> another interface that ... interfaces with an ICE tree to make the >> necessary connections. This would allow for an "artist friendly" solution >> while maintaining the adaptability of ICE. >> >> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert elements, >> primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to draw a curve >> and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you get prompted >> to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for this new >> hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would give you the >> options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of the mesh, >> by length? what density? etc... >> >> The idea of a hairMesh is a popular one, and relatively simple by design. >> Integrating it with a complete hair solution is slight more tricky. I >> suppose standard guide generation on the whole mesh followed by selecting a >> face to serve as the base layer for a hair mesh to be extruded outwards, >> with the guides within that face being replaced by guides generated by the >> mesh. >> >> Simulation of a hairMesh would also be tricky business, but combining an >> off-the-shelf solution (say, syflex) with per-strand simulation might make >> for some interesting results. >> >> >> *takes notes* >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 3:48 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I don't feel qualified to dictate the software needs of everything and >>> everyone in the industry, i might expand a bit on what i'd like to see from >>> such a system. >>> >>> For a hair system ? >>> >>> *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >>> >>> *) it should probably work on its own engine (like yeti, i assume). >>> >>> *) If it has its own engine, it should be open so as to offer TD's and >>> Dev's the freedom and space they need to solve problems and expand tools or >>> implement new tools. (this point is more a given, TD's and Dev's should >>> always be facilitated in this regard). >>> >>> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that >>> exists for this purpose. >>> >>> *)It should be tablet compatible, as in stylus, pen pressure, all that >>> jazz. >>> >>> *) It should be ICE compliant ; stand on it's own yes, but that should >>> not subject isolated from ICE, it's too good a tool to be ignored. Ideally, >>> a relationship where ICE is less of a crutch and more of a third arm. e.g >>> The proprietary Guides/strands/units can be brought into ICE as data, so if >>> you where making a wood nymph, and you wanted to make flowers bloom from >>> the tips of her hair: all this managed through ICE. Listening to Paul >>> Smith, in his demo of FUZZ, he says that strand collisions are very slow. >>> So regarding hair, ICE would be more an aesthetics effects base tool then a >>> physics engine, the actual simulation being taken care of by the hair >>> systems dedicated engine. so yes as much compliance between the two systems >>> as possible. >>> >>> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >>> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the right >>> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >>> >>> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >>> >>> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >>> time !). >>> >>> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >>> >>> >>> 1) A stylus pressure segment with curve profile. >>> >>> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >>> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >>> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number of >>> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >>> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >>> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >>> >>> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons that >>> appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and weld) i just >>> wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >>> >>> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the hair >>> system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: paint/erase >>> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >>> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >>> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >>> >>> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert elements, >>> primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to draw a curve >>> and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you get prompted >>> to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for this new >>> hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would give you the >>> options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of the mesh, >>> by length? what density? etc... >>> >>> note: if you convert to a guide, them the elements will become guides, >>> if you choose convert to strand then the elements will become hair in witch >>> ever layer you put them, influenced by the closest guide on that layer. >>> >>> >>> And that's it, these are some of the things i would like to see in a >>> "heavier" hair system. >>> >>> >>> I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >>> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, so a >>> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >>> version to be sold. >>> >>> i doubt anyone will ever implement any of this, this is just a lot of >>> pipe dreaming, but that is my answer. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14 February 2014 00:51, Mathias N <mdawn...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Sticking with the idea of a complete solution within Softimage, what >>>> would your definition of heavier be? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I saw that the first day it was up Eddie >>>>> >>>>> And as jawdroppingly cool as it is, i have a feeling we are going to >>>>> need something a little heavier to go forward. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14 February 2014 00:01, Ed Manning <etmth...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> https://vimeo.com/80382153 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> A new hair system is kinda over due. :( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 February 2014 16:54, Luc Girard <l...@shedmtl.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for the way you mentioned our projects :) . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to chime in and say that we, at Shed, are also looking >>>>>>>> at hair solutions actively. Our solution based on Kristinka does the >>>>>>>> job >>>>>>>> but it is very far from being an out of the box solution and it >>>>>>>> requires a >>>>>>>> lot of RnD to maintain as it not supported by AD. If a problem pops up, >>>>>>>> with substeps motion blur per example, we are left to our own devices. >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> usually prevail but we end up spending nearly 50% of the time on >>>>>>>> technical >>>>>>>> details vs real look dev. I thought you should know :). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >From what I've seen around, Yeti seems to be a good contender but >>>>>>>> I've yet to do a full production setup with it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good luck in your search ! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Luc Girard // SHED >>>>>>>> VFX artist >>>>>>>> 1410, RUE STANLEY, 11E ÉTAGE MONTRÉAL (QUÉBEC) H3A 1P8 >>>>>>>> T 514 849-1555 F 514 849-5025 WWW.SHEDMTL.COM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: >>>>>>>> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Tim Leydecker >>>>>>>> Sent: 8 février 2014 07:26 >>>>>>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Softimage Hair options? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for this in-depth answer! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Personally, I´m starting to lean towards going for the trial of >>>>>>>> Yeti, one reason being that I think I remember Colin Doncaster´s name >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> another maya maling list and another because of the really nice sample >>>>>>>> image of a bear posted by Yolandi Meiring in a similar thread here: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Thread) >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/2erKqUcghpI >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Image) >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/xsi_list/attach/994086131ca9460/bear_still.jpg?part=4&view=1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another really nice one is a proof of concept of bringing (3dsMax) >>>>>>>> hair-farm into Softimage from Lee-Perry Smith, with props to Dani >>>>>>>> Garcia >>>>>>>> and Steven Caron. >>>>>>>> That human hairdo and it´s renderings look incredibly awesome. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://ir-ltd.net/hair-farm-hair-into-softimage/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For a Melena/Kristinka workflow using Anto Matkovic´s tools in >>>>>>>> those beautiful shed projects there´s a nice clip posted by/on Lester >>>>>>>> Banks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://lesterbanks.com/2013/05/workflow-tips-for-creating-and-grooming-hair-in-softimage/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have only limited amounts of time I can spend on this and need to >>>>>>>> find something that has potential to be useable for testing Redshift´s >>>>>>>> hair >>>>>>>> shading approach when applicable but ideally integrates seamlessly into >>>>>>>> either Maya/Max/Softimage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The combination of Maya+Redshift is allready working very well and >>>>>>>> it seems it´ll be easier to successfully migrate from simple hair/fur >>>>>>>> testing to something actually looking good (using yeti). Also, yeti >>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>> variety of licensing options I might find atractive at a later date if >>>>>>>> tempted to actually finish something beyond spare-time doodling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I´d prefer Softimage but if that stuff works better in Maya, it´ll >>>>>>>> be Maya. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suck with Max, even the fastest and most intuitive plugin can´t >>>>>>>> compensate that sad fact. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> tim >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 08.02.2014 12:57, Stefan Kubicek wrote: >>>>>>>> > Hi Tim, >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I've just been dealing with hair an a hamster and used the >>>>>>>> built-in hair&fur of Softimage /2014SP2). >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > A few tips about working with built-in hair: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Avoid too dense meshes. It creates a guide hair for every vertex, >>>>>>>> > hence dense meshes make you fiddle with lots and lots of guide >>>>>>>> hair strands manually, which can be counter-productive and -intuitive. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > If you want to edit hair parameters on a per vertex basis (via >>>>>>>> vertex >>>>>>>> > colors), you need to plan ahead where exactly you want your hair >>>>>>>> to be and where you want certain features (transparency, density, kink >>>>>>>> & >>>>>>>> frizz) to change and over which distance/area. This is especially >>>>>>>> important >>>>>>>> for areas like hand and feet, as well as nose & eye lids. >>>>>>>> > So, before you move the mesh into skinning/rigging, you better >>>>>>>> make sure your topology works not only for animation but also for the >>>>>>>> hair >>>>>>>> setup you have in mind. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Don't rely on the built-in style transfer functionality. It does >>>>>>>> > mostly work but has a tendency to "blur" the transferred hair >>>>>>>> style, even if your source and target emitter topology are the same. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> need to move in again and reintroduce details in the fur that got lost. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > If you want to simulate hair with collision don't use a subd mesh >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> > the emitter. The docs say that having hair emitted from a subd >>>>>>>> mesh >>>>>>>> > cannot collide with its own emitter, so you have to duplicate the >>>>>>>> > source mesh and subdivide it for real (that is, create more actual >>>>>>>> > polygons) and use that as the collision object. That would still >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> > acceptable, if it worked, which it does not. What I found after >>>>>>>> > tedious testing was that any collision testing fails when your >>>>>>>> emitter is a subd mesh, independent of what you have it collide with >>>>>>>> (itself or another mesh), which kinda sucks and is the biggest problem >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> ran into for which I could not find a solution. Thankfully my fur was >>>>>>>> rather short and the character had a lot of secondary motion, so it >>>>>>>> looks >>>>>>>> alife enough (besides some problems when bending arms, which are hardly >>>>>>>> noticeable in the animation in my case). From what I can tell it looks >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> collision is always computed against a simplified collision sphere >>>>>>>> representation of the collision object, no matter what you set for >>>>>>>> collision accuracy and shape, deforming shape, etc. It just doesn't >>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>> at least not for me. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Sometimes, when saving and reloading a scene some hair strands >>>>>>>> (like 1 >>>>>>>> > out of 1000) would suddenly stick in some random direction. I had >>>>>>>> the impression that it helps to always collapse the modeling stack >>>>>>>> before >>>>>>>> saving, at least it never occurred again in final stages of production >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> the fur description was final and not changed anymore. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Next time I will surely look at Kristinka or Melena. AS for >>>>>>>> > simulation...I believe there was a Strand Simulation framework >>>>>>>> with self collision introduced on softimage.tv some weeks ago that >>>>>>>> looked promising, I haven't heard of ne1 using it for hair so far, mayb >>>>>>>> someone else can comment on that? Would love to hear some ideas on >>>>>>>> this as >>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Good luck, >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Stefan >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > > Hi guys, >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> what would be a convenient way to create,style and control hair >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> >> Softimage, with lengths up to 10-12 inches and ideally both a >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>> >> collision model and dedicated styling tools? >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Which Softimage version would you suggest, e.g. 2014sp2? >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> I´m a novice with hair and fur but would like to set up a >>>>>>>> manageable >>>>>>>> >> sample/test that ideally works with Arnold and Redshift. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Is it possible to work generic or transfer results from, say Yeti >>>>>>>> >> into Softimage? >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Would you recommend actually leaning towards Maya for such a >>>>>>>> task, >>>>>>>> >> either going directly to Yeti or similar? >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> I know those are fuzzy questions, I guess I´m actually looking >>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>> >> biased answer regarding any of the various hair plugin options >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> >> any of the major three apps, e.g. max/maya/softimage. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Sofar, I´ve found the following options: >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> hairfarm, yeti, ornatrix, shave&haircut, maya hair, maya xgen >>>>>>>> "hair" >>>>>>>> >> in 2014ext and the cinema4d hair options (shadowmapped). >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Admittedly, that´s a lot of options and I find it difficult to >>>>>>>> bet my >>>>>>>> >> time-investment onto any of them since I simply know bling about >>>>>>>> pro´s or con´s. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> tim >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -- www.matinai.com
