Our only experience with white PVC glue was a take-over job, a hotel that
had white glue that let go at 65 PSI during testing. Maybe you do a better
job of inserting and twisting than this contractor; but this guy's
designer
(I can say that, the guy claims to be a PE) stated the job did not need a
fire pump -and he knows, having done this for over 50 years. We looked at
the gauge (28 PSI static at 5' AFF), looked at the street (about 800'
away),
looked up (3 story hotel) and ran a drain test (dropped like a stone) and
ran calcs on what was left of the installation drawings after the hotel
sat
empty over a winter; installed a fire pump as an extra to the couple grand
job of doing the punch list. Gotta love those bonding companies.....and
old-time engineers that don't need evidence to know they're right. R I g h
t....
glc
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CPVC products
I contacted Noveon prior to mixing the white pvc and listed cpvc and was
assured that there was not a chemical compatibility problem. We mix it a
lot
on main drains simply because we use what's on the truck.
The reason I contacted Noveon was a very large project where we were
connecting to existing white pvc for the underground supply and we did not
want to go from pvc to thread back to cpvc underground. We also contacted
Spears to make sure there was not a chemical compatibility issue for this
project. They were cautious but did admit that there was not a problem.
We also got tired of throwing expensive (in comparison) cpvc caps away
after
testing some projects and started using the white caps for testing only.
Then we cut them off and install sprinklers when ceilings are framed. We
have NEVER had one of these to fail under 200 to 225 psi.
After all of that, because we do not want to make a mistake, why did you
say
it was a NO NO? Do you know something specific that is a problem or are
you
talking about using the white pvc because of listing problems?
Greg
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown
(TECH- GVL)
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CPVC products
Victaulic did use resin made by Georgia Gulf as did Spears. Spears did
make some of the larger sizes of fitting for Tyco and I assume that they
still do but in general Tyco uses Noveon. Reliable sells Harvel pipe
which is Noevon resin and Spears fittings which I thought used Georgia
Gulf but maybe not. Viking has bought or restarted the old Thompson
fittings and pipe which will use Neovon. The Noveon reps tried to
push the compatibility issue but they had a problem after Thompson
fittings went off the market and there were no manufacturers of fittings
that used Neoveon except Tyco so they kind of back off that issue.
If you have any doubts about the compatibility please go the Spears web
site.
Basically if the product is UL Listed and/or FM Approved there should
not be a problem.
But I would caution against using white pvc and intermixing it with
CPVC. That is a NO NO.
Michael L. Brown
The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CPVC products
The different brands of CPVC are cross-listed, particularly the
Spears-Noveon family interconnections. I'm pretty sure that Victaulic
is Noveon and not proprietary; Spears is proprietary in that they are
starting from scratch with raw material.
Steve Leyton
PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:27 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CPVC products
We have used every combination known to man including mixing the Orange
pipe
and fittings with normal white PVC using the One Step glue (for drains,
UG,
etc) with absolutely no problems whatsoever.
Greg
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul
Sincaglia
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CPVC products
Ron-
I generally assumed the same thing....but you know what assumptions do.
I was wrong. There are a number of suppliers of CPVC and of course only
those using Noveon's resin product in accordance with their terms etc.
can be called "Blazemaster". Other companies are making CPVC pipe
and/or fittings using resins that are not "Blazemaster". One good
example is Spears who used to be Blazemaster but has since changed for
whatever reason.
The only issue I have identified so far is that some CPVC manufacturer's
and/or products may not have all of the same UL listings. For example
Blazemaster brand pipe may be listed for use in a riser application but
a competitor may not be.
Obviously this listing distinction would only matter if you were using
the CPVC pipe in particular application where there was a unique listing
issue.
Moreover, this listing issue may be an academic issue. From what I can
tell, the special listing distinctions simply mean that one entity has
gone through the trouble to test their product in a particular
orientation (to expand market use) and the other guy has not done so
(yet).
From an AHJ standpoint, the listing distinction does matter as that is
the code...but as an AHJ myself (my other hat) I don't know that I have
ever made the distinction (I learned something today). My thinking was
always....it is Orange...it doesn't leak....it passes the hydrostatic
test etc...Good to Go. Now I have something else to torment sprinkler
contractors with.
Which brings me back to the original question...Is there any factual
data that would indicate that competing CPVC products are incompatible?
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron
Greenman
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:34 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Mark Hoyt
Subject: Re: CPVC products
Paul,
As far as I know the only manufacturer of cpvc pellets (the "raw"
material) is Noveon and that they will only sell their product to
manufacturers that adhere their (Noveon's) manufacturing standards so
essentially all cpvc is the same. There used to be a compatibility
issue with a different base material manufactured by GEM before Tyco
acquired Grinnell but the GEM product has not been available for
years. I'm ccing a copy of this to Mark Hoyt (Noveon rep hereabouts)
and a trusted friend, Mark, can you confirm my comments or give Paul
the true skinny.
On 4/12/07, Paul Sincaglia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Folks-
Just a general question regarding CPVC.
As a specifier, I normally make no distinctions regarding the
manufacturer or brand name for piping or fittings. I simply state the
material and relevant/applicable ASTM standards etc. After all, I
want
my clients to get the best pricing and open specs tend to do that.
Obviously I make exceptions to that if I have a good reason (hydraulic
performance, specific feature needed/wanted, similarity with an owners
other systems etc.)
Which brings me to my question...Is there any need to be more specific
about CPVC products? I have always held the belief that CPVC is CPVC.
Provided that supplier of pipe and/or fittings maintains a UL listing
(or other listing) for their products for fire protection use, then
the
parts are essentially interchangeable. Am I wrong?
I know that Blazemaster in their literature will generally steer you
toward product mfg/suppliers that use their resin and assume the
others
do the same. But I have always seen this as being the equivalent of
GM
wanting me to use Genuine GM parts.
Does anyone have any hard factual data to the contrary such as
technical
bulletins etc.
Thanks
Paul Sincaglia
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Brown
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CPVC & Seismic Bracing
Maybe this will help
To register click on this link https://www.krm.com/clse
Topic: New Seismic Requirements with NFPA and IBC The topic of seismic
design has become well known to many over the past five years. And
like
many, your learning experience has most likely come with a cost. The
new editions of NFPA and IBC have arrived and offer a much more
understandable process for those of us involved with fire protection
systems to apply. This seminar has been organized with condensed
step-by-step information that leads from the "when" through to the
"how". Whether you have wrestled with this before or you have not yet
experienced this process, this seminar will be valuable to both
engineers of record, sprinkler system designers and authorities of
jurisdiction. You do not want to miss this.
Thank you,
Chris Brown
Fire Protection Designer, Poole Fire Protection
Office: 913.829.8650 Direct: 913.747.2056 Cell: 913.208.3600
Fax:
913.829.8690
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: CPVC & Seismic Bracing
Roland,
That's exactly what I thought and tried to explain to the South
Carolina
State Fire Marshall's office. They insist the piping has to be 2 1/2"
or
larger.
Matt
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| | Roland Huggins |
| | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>|
| | Sent by: |
| | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|
| | prinkler.org |
| | 04/04/2007 12:32 PM |
| | Please respond to |
| | sprinklerforum |
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To|
| [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|
|
cc|
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Subject|
| Re: CPVC & Seismic Bracing
|
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the pipe size on the branch line is when a sway brace is REQUIRED for
the branch line. That criteria does NOT eliminate the requirement to
sway brace the main by use of an offset brace thus size is immaterial
(except for the brace being listed for the size of interest). If the
brace wasn't listed for 1 inch (which it is), then as the designer,
you'd need to size the starter piece to meet the needs of the brace.
Roland
On Apr 4, 2007, at 8:35 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I know this was discussed recently but I don't think this specific
> point was brought up. Currently there is only one listed sway brace
> for CPVC and it is a lateral brace. Now in order to provide
> longitudinal bracing it was suggested to install a lateral brace on
> the branch line within 24 in. of the main. However if you read
> 9.3.5.3.5 it states "...for lines that are 2 1/2" and greater in
> diameter". So what do you do for a 13R system with lets say 1 1/2"
> mains and 1" branch lines?
>
> Matt Drewello
>
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at home....
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