We're fortunate that one owner here is an ex-designer from the old days, so the emphasis is RIGHT before speed. Our trainee is enrolled in the "other association's" 2-year certificate program so we have to teach him how to do hand calcs, and others are sitting in on the training sessions. Having one being forced to learn is good for all in this case; plus another sitting in is facing the NICET challenge- get rolling before they institute the change to one level exam vrs incremental passing of individual elements.
glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams - work Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friction Loss That is systemic from the training of the designers and not necessarily the software. Most designers (at least that I come in contact with) are trained on-the-job. The push for most owners/managers is for production, especially with the frenetic pace of construction projects today. In that type of environment, it is difficult to say 'here, do these calcs by hand, it may take you all day, but you will learn from it' as opposed to 'this needs to be at the GC's office by noon, crunch the numbers and get it done'. It is easier to learn in an environment where the pressure of production is off. At 02:10 PM 7/26/2007, you wrote: >This one of the problems with the newer automated calcs generated from >the 3D type sprinkler design software. There are more "computer >operators" out there than actual designers. They layout a system and >hit the Calculate button and whatever comes out is it. It's often never >looked at or critiqued let alone reviewed for correctness. > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Group >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.lg.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George >Church >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:59 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Friction Loss > >I'd sent this to Bob Gagnon after seeing it this AM. We'd been >discussing the FPE vrs CET areas in preparation for a mtg with >politicians, trying to resolve the "uniform" construction code and its >crappy implementation in PA. >Bob puts a lot of time and effort in sharing his expertise and >experience in his texts, so he felt very rewarded when he saw this. > >My point was those of us who did hand calcs HAD to have an understanding >of when A changes this way, B will change this way, and C must be >modified to keep something else in a relevant range- all generally in >our heds since we weren't walking around with 500gig cel >phone/laptop/pda/calculators then. >We haven't even mentioned the old "AddFeet" abacus we used- but the >problem of not understanding how the variables affect each other means >that "stink tests" aren't done as much, nor can modifications for >balancig, etc. be analyzed as quickly if one doesn't understand that >adding a couple grid lines to a 5 line grid could solve a problem. > >glc > >-----Original Message----- >From: George Church [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:34 AM >To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' >Subject: FW: Friction Loss > >Ya gotta love this :) >Hand calcs- a valuable tool so often ignored by the pre-slide rule >generation dependent on keyboard entry, leading to a lack of >understanding of the interdependencies of the variables. > >glc > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy >Waite >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:27 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Friction Loss > >Brian, >When I first learned to do calcs by hand I used a book by Robert Gagnon >called "Design of Water-Based Fire Protection Systems." It was a text >book for one of my college classes, but the back of the book contains >friction loss tables for everything from steel, copper, Ductile Iron, >PVC, and even cement lined. > >Jimmy Waite >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:45 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Friction Loss > >George, Not elderly, the preferred term is "seasoned". lol > >And I confess I too used punch cards for main frame inputs and even >remember punch paper tape. Lap tops were referred to as Portables. > >The first computer we used for Mechanical Calcs was a Tandy TRS-80 Model >I (cassette tape storage) Then went to TRS-80 Model 2 with twin floppy >drives. We thought we were "Cadillac'n" then. > >One point of this topic being that there are so many tools out there >which can make us more productive and more accurate in our daily work. >BUT new designers need to understand how our systems work hydraulically >in order to be able to design and build cost effective and efficient >systems. > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Group >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.lg.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George >Church >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:46 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Friction Loss > >9/18/74, design trainee, "Automatic's" Phila office. >Bob Gagnon was working up the street at an ASCOA regional office, we >still work together in various roles (author noted earlier this AM). >I started at the ripe old age of 19, so I'm an elderly 52 now. >1/2" and 17/32" were the sizes, uprights and pendents, chrome, brass, >wax or lead, sidewalls were vertical, 99% of systems had WMAGs. > >There are plenty on this Forum far older than I am- and I'm biting my >fingers to not hint at one FPE that just turned 60 but wouldn't let me >pry the date out of him, so the training wheels for his bicycle sit here >wrapped but unsent:) (he now knows who I meant) > >But in our management simulation course in college, we used punchcards >to enter data to the mainframe at F&M. So some of us express awe at how >easy much of today's software is, and how bad our keyboard skills are. >B:xdir <R> > >glc > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:35 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Friction Loss > >So George, what you're saying is you got into the fire protection >business shortly after fire was discovered? > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Group >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.lg.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George >Church >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:03 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Friction Loss > >Back in 1980+/- I was doing trees on an excel spreadsheet, a very simple >computerization of the old favorite hand calc sheet. One morning I >received back from ISO a bounced submittal of a 3rd floor addition to >nursing home, since there was an error in the calc. Same morning our >fabricated pipe was delivered. That afternoon Joe Manning was readying a >Crowley calc program for me, went there next day to get it "installed" >and receive some training. > >While the timing (release of fab before apvls) was really at fault, it >was time to invest in REAL software. >You get what you pay for in many instances.....save money in original >investment, spend more time in entry/troubleshooting/updating- not to >mention not being able to do grids. > >I suppose, in parallel, there are contractors who limit their work to >CPVC since they don't have a couple 24" wrenches or a 300 machine to >thread. >There is a cost to entering the business, and certainly it can be done >at various levels. > >Time warp- 1980 was pre-excel, it was in Supercalc 123 (pre DOS, for >that matter, CPM on an Osborne 28 lb "luggable" as laptops were known, >5" B&W screen, twin 5.25" floppies, no hard drive, probably 2k RAM, >looked like a Singer sewing machine or small suitcase...) > >glc > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron >Greenman >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:49 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Friction Loss > >I like this idea. I made a simple Excel spreadsheet that does the >simplified calc method from 13D. That method being so simple that it >probably takes more time to input the data into the spreadsheet than to >do it by hand but at least the computer doesn't make arithmetic errors >like I do. I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to develop a matrix that >produced a multiplier either from a tabular base or by doing a >Hazen-Williams equation shouldn't be too hard. I suspect that a lot of >the commercial stand alone programs available are based on Excel. But >then again I'm not a computer guy so maybe I'm all wet. > >On 7/26/07, Paul Sincaglia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Just a random thought in this regard. > > > > For years we have all been essentially stuck using either old hand > > calc methods (nothing wrong with them...just limited in what can be > > done > > easily/practically) or using one of the commercial software packages. > > > > Since the calculation principals (required input and output) are the > > same for all of us (NFPA 13 specific requirements), maybe it is time > > for >someone > > (NFPA, ASFA, NFSA, SFPE et al.) to sponsor the development of an "open > > > source" hydraulics package that we can all use and improve as our >collective > > needs change. > > > > It is more than technically feasible today....and would certainly help > > > the industry as a whole..save the current hydraulic software vendors. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > Paul > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy > > Waite > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:27 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Friction Loss > > > > Brian, > > When I first learned to do calcs by hand I used a book by Robert > > Gagnon called "Design of Water-Based Fire Protection Systems." It was > > > a text >book > > for one of my college classes, but the back of the book contains > > friction loss tables for everything from steel, copper, Ductile Iron, > > PVC, and even cement lined. > > > > Jimmy Waite > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian >Harris > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Friction Loss > > > > What is the easiest way to figure friction loss when doing hydraulic >calc's > > by hand? I know the formula that's in the book but I was hoping there >might > > be a reference chart or something you could use instead. I have a > > "Construction Master 5" calculator for working with feet and inches > > but >it's > > not set up to do compound formulas like the Hazen-Williams, sure would >hate > > to have to buy another one just to do formulas....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > >-- >Ron Greenman >at home.... >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut 860-535-2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
