This one of the problems with the newer automated calcs generated from the 3D type sprinkler design software. There are more "computer operators" out there than actual designers. They layout a system and hit the Calculate button and whatever comes out is it. It's often never looked at or critiqued let alone reviewed for correctness.
Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friction Loss I'd sent this to Bob Gagnon after seeing it this AM. We'd been discussing the FPE vrs CET areas in preparation for a mtg with politicians, trying to resolve the "uniform" construction code and its crappy implementation in PA. Bob puts a lot of time and effort in sharing his expertise and experience in his texts, so he felt very rewarded when he saw this. My point was those of us who did hand calcs HAD to have an understanding of when A changes this way, B will change this way, and C must be modified to keep something else in a relevant range- all generally in our heds since we weren't walking around with 500gig cel phone/laptop/pda/calculators then. We haven't even mentioned the old "AddFeet" abacus we used- but the problem of not understanding how the variables affect each other means that "stink tests" aren't done as much, nor can modifications for balancig, etc. be analyzed as quickly if one doesn't understand that adding a couple grid lines to a 5 line grid could solve a problem. glc -----Original Message----- From: George Church [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:34 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: FW: Friction Loss Ya gotta love this :) Hand calcs- a valuable tool so often ignored by the pre-slide rule generation dependent on keyboard entry, leading to a lack of understanding of the interdependencies of the variables. glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy Waite Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friction Loss Brian, When I first learned to do calcs by hand I used a book by Robert Gagnon called "Design of Water-Based Fire Protection Systems." It was a text book for one of my college classes, but the back of the book contains friction loss tables for everything from steel, copper, Ductile Iron, PVC, and even cement lined. Jimmy Waite [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friction Loss George, Not elderly, the preferred term is "seasoned". lol And I confess I too used punch cards for main frame inputs and even remember punch paper tape. Lap tops were referred to as Portables. The first computer we used for Mechanical Calcs was a Tandy TRS-80 Model I (cassette tape storage) Then went to TRS-80 Model 2 with twin floppy drives. We thought we were "Cadillac'n" then. One point of this topic being that there are so many tools out there which can make us more productive and more accurate in our daily work. BUT new designers need to understand how our systems work hydraulically in order to be able to design and build cost effective and efficient systems. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friction Loss 9/18/74, design trainee, "Automatic's" Phila office. Bob Gagnon was working up the street at an ASCOA regional office, we still work together in various roles (author noted earlier this AM). I started at the ripe old age of 19, so I'm an elderly 52 now. 1/2" and 17/32" were the sizes, uprights and pendents, chrome, brass, wax or lead, sidewalls were vertical, 99% of systems had WMAGs. There are plenty on this Forum far older than I am- and I'm biting my fingers to not hint at one FPE that just turned 60 but wouldn't let me pry the date out of him, so the training wheels for his bicycle sit here wrapped but unsent:) (he now knows who I meant) But in our management simulation course in college, we used punchcards to enter data to the mainframe at F&M. So some of us express awe at how easy much of today's software is, and how bad our keyboard skills are. B:xdir <R> glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friction Loss So George, what you're saying is you got into the fire protection business shortly after fire was discovered? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friction Loss Back in 1980+/- I was doing trees on an excel spreadsheet, a very simple computerization of the old favorite hand calc sheet. One morning I received back from ISO a bounced submittal of a 3rd floor addition to nursing home, since there was an error in the calc. Same morning our fabricated pipe was delivered. That afternoon Joe Manning was readying a Crowley calc program for me, went there next day to get it "installed" and receive some training. While the timing (release of fab before apvls) was really at fault, it was time to invest in REAL software. You get what you pay for in many instances.....save money in original investment, spend more time in entry/troubleshooting/updating- not to mention not being able to do grids. I suppose, in parallel, there are contractors who limit their work to CPVC since they don't have a couple 24" wrenches or a 300 machine to thread. There is a cost to entering the business, and certainly it can be done at various levels. Time warp- 1980 was pre-excel, it was in Supercalc 123 (pre DOS, for that matter, CPM on an Osborne 28 lb "luggable" as laptops were known, 5" B&W screen, twin 5.25" floppies, no hard drive, probably 2k RAM, looked like a Singer sewing machine or small suitcase...) glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Friction Loss I like this idea. I made a simple Excel spreadsheet that does the simplified calc method from 13D. That method being so simple that it probably takes more time to input the data into the spreadsheet than to do it by hand but at least the computer doesn't make arithmetic errors like I do. I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to develop a matrix that produced a multiplier either from a tabular base or by doing a Hazen-Williams equation shouldn't be too hard. I suspect that a lot of the commercial stand alone programs available are based on Excel. But then again I'm not a computer guy so maybe I'm all wet. On 7/26/07, Paul Sincaglia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just a random thought in this regard. > > For years we have all been essentially stuck using either old hand > calc methods (nothing wrong with them...just limited in what can be > done > easily/practically) or using one of the commercial software packages. > > Since the calculation principals (required input and output) are the > same for all of us (NFPA 13 specific requirements), maybe it is time > for someone > (NFPA, ASFA, NFSA, SFPE et al.) to sponsor the development of an "open > source" hydraulics package that we can all use and improve as our collective > needs change. > > It is more than technically feasible today....and would certainly help > the industry as a whole..save the current hydraulic software vendors. > > Just a thought. > > Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy > Waite > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:27 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Friction Loss > > Brian, > When I first learned to do calcs by hand I used a book by Robert > Gagnon called "Design of Water-Based Fire Protection Systems." It was > a text book > for one of my college classes, but the back of the book contains > friction loss tables for everything from steel, copper, Ductile Iron, > PVC, and even cement lined. > > Jimmy Waite > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Harris > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Friction Loss > > What is the easiest way to figure friction loss when doing hydraulic calc's > by hand? I know the formula that's in the book but I was hoping there might > be a reference chart or something you could use instead. I have a > "Construction Master 5" calculator for working with feet and inches > but it's > not set up to do compound formulas like the Hazen-Williams, sure would hate > to have to buy another one just to do formulas....... > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
