George, I think current Forum members, or those contractors, engineers, fitters, etc. that would be Forum members if they knew about it, had time, etc., are the types that would "...install(ing) what's right for the customer instead of what's cheapest for ourselves...." I think we don't get a chance to talk to the owner/customer/consumer and so don't have the opportunity to discuss alternatives. We end up talking only to GCs that dont't understand what we do that are working for A&Es that find us a nuisance and then only leaving messages, if you will, in the form of bids. Now you might beat out the cheapest guy because you're both known quantities to the GC but that determination is typically based on your ability to get the job done competently, on time, that you work well with others, and at budget with few if any change orders rather than your customer served design expertise. How often have you been installing a 13D system in a multi-million dollar mega-house and wondered if the owner might want more than just life safety protection but never had a chance to make that decision? Finally, I pulled a little gaff out of the context of your larger missive and I truly believe everyone here on the Forum understood what you were getting at.
On 10/22/07, George Church <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Top- > Years ago when we became aware of Relmark's policy, we adopted it as our > company standard. Our losses in this area have been, off the top of my head, > zilch. For that, we thank Relamark for such a bold requirement. Water damage > claims not only cost money, but stain our industry's reputation as well. > > John, YES, there are down sides to CPVC, may of them. Just as there are with > ALL piping materials- PEX, steel, SS316 (cost-DUH!), galv, etc. We attempt > to minimize the amount of future impairments by only installing CPVC in > areas where we aren't expecting tenant fit-out. An example recently was an > office building, fit out on 2nd floor so we used CPVC; first floor was shell > so we stuck with steel pipe for relatively easy modifications without the 24 > hour cure time. I think it shortchanges the Owner to save them money on the > original install if they'll face outages and fire watch costs in the future, > as well as not doing the industry any favors by setting the stage for > impairments that could result in fire losses in a sprinklered building. > > The sooner we, as an industry, fully adopt Relamrk's policy, along with > installing what's right for the customer instead of what's cheapest for > ourselves, the better off we'll all be. Don't know if a proposal to > 13/13R/13D is needed, but certainly something to toss into the Industry Best > Practices book we all keep in our top drawer beside the JD (Jack, not juris, > LOL). Just make sure you note it in your proposal on any CPVC job that may > have fitout, so YOU don't have to absorb the Fire Watch, and the Owner is > aware of the potential costs when he reviews the material you're proposing > for the project- in case steel is something he'd require IF he knew what you > should be telling him in advance. > > We have had a couple instances where a customer has elected to direct us to > turn water on prior to 24 hours cure time; we've gotten a hold harmless on > these to protect our carrier, and we take someone from the building staff, > if possible, by the hand and show them the control and drain valves in case > of catastrophe. The most recent was in an occupied residential building, so > we certainly appreciated the owner's reasons for it, and complied- with > proper paperwork and refresher course! > > George Church > Rowe Spkr > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Top Myers > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:56 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Plastic cure times > > The sprinkler industry is experiencing water damage losses from CPVC > piping. There have been many large dollar catastrophic losses and almost > always in a service situation. After visiting contractors and there > fitters all over the country who had such losses we realized how > important cure time was to these losses. In new construction most > joints have days or weeks to cure before water is applied so a joint > that is not perfect will cure with no problem. In a service situation > this is just not the case in the real world. Many good contractors with > experienced trained fitters got burnt. > > However, at RelMark, the loss activity related to improperly joining of > piping has decreased to the point where these types of claims are nearly > non-existent with our insured. The reason? RelMark Program Managers > requires our contracting partners to practice standard cut-in procedures > that include a minimum of 24-hour cure time for all modifications or > repairs made to CPVC piping. > > There are many variables to insuring the proper joining of two pieces of > CPVC piping. The temperature, humidity, pipe size, age of the solvent > cement, cut of the pipe, or dirt or moisture on the pipe, can all affect > the time needed for the proper curing of the cement. Because it is > difficult for field installers to weigh all the variables and adjust for > appropriate cure times for each cut-in, RelMark Program Managers Cut-In > Procedures require a minimum 24-hour cure time before introducing water > into the sprinkler piping. > > With a 24-hour cure time, the sprinkler system, or a portion of the > sprinkler system, will be out of service while the cement cures. It is > important that the building owners understand their responsibility in > maintaining a safe environment during the system modification/repair. > Written notification of the length of cure time must be shared with the > building owner prior to initiating work. If using a contract, the > standard wording should be added to the document. Otherwise, a standard > 'Shut Down Notification' should be developed and signed by the building > owner before work is initiated. The following is sample language for > your consideration. > > Sample Wording for 24-Hour Minimum Cure Time: > > We, (name of sprinkler contractor), are providing notification to you > (name of building owner) that we will be altering the CPVC piping in > your building as part of the sprinkler system repair or modification. > To assure proper operation when completed, CPVC piping components > require a minimum cure time of 24 hours. As such, your sprinkler system > will be shut down and out of service for at least 24 hours. You are > responsible for instituting and maintaining a fire watch in the building > while the sprinkler system is out of service. You must provide your > property insurance carrier with advance notification of the sprinkler > shut down. You may be asked by your property insurer to take additional > precautions. > We, (name of sprinkler contractor), are not responsible for fire, or > other bodily injury or property damage that could result due to lack of > sprinkler system response during the shut down period. > > If a building owner needs additional information as to why you, as the > sprinkler contractor, are asking for lengthy down times on the sprinkler > system, feel free to share the first page of this document with the > individual(s). Education and understanding of the hazard will aid in > compliance of the cure times. > > Of course the standard check with your lawyer... > > Top Myers > RelMark Group > 961 Pottstown Pike > Chester Springs, PA 19425 > O - 610-321-2415 X-219, C - 610-952-0965 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim > Deason > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Plastic cure times > > Ron Greenman wrote: > > Chris, > > > > Cure times are in the manufactures' literature at are specific to pipe > > size and ambient temperature per manufacturer (or at least supplier of > > resin). Make sure you file documentation with the job file as to what > > you did since it may save you later. I've heard of a suit involving a > > penthouse apartment and a Monet that questioned cure time that is > > around $8M. > > > > On 10/19/07, Todd Williams - FPDC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> It seems to me I read somewhere something about 24 hours cure time > >> before a 200# test > >> > >> > >> > >> At 03:09 PM 10/19/2007, you wrote: > >> > >>> It is going to be in the book for the type pipe you are using. The > cure > >>> times are listed, but there is an area in most of them for reno's to > >>> existing plastic. I can't remember seeing 24 hours before. I think > that is > >>> just a standard SOP for most companies. Watch the Temp changes > because after > >>> a certain temp, you can't even work with plastic until you bring the > room to > >>> a minimum temp. > >>> > >>> Matt > >>> > >>> Matthew J. Willis > >>> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. > >>> 1160 McKenzie Rd. > >>> PO Box 877 > >>> Cantonment, FL. 32533 > >>> 850-937-1850 Voice > >>> 850-937-1852 Facsimile > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- >-----Original Message----- > >>> ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >>> ----- >Behalf Of Chris Cahill > >>> ----- >Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:05 PM > >>> ----- >To: [email protected] > >>> ----- >Subject: Plastic cure times > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >We don't do a lot of plastic work and what little we do > >>> ----- >is new work. We > >>> ----- >seem to recall we're supposed to allow the glue to cure > >>> ----- >for 24 hrs before returning an existing system to > >>> ----- >service. Even longer for 2" and larger. > >>> ----- >But when we look at 2 different manufactures recommended > >>> ----- >guidelines they don't match our memory. We can go 1.5 > >>> ----- >hours for 1" and 8 hours for 2" and up for brand A and > >>> ----- >30 minutes up to 2" and 1.5 hrs for larger for brand B. > >>> ----- >Has the glue changed that much the 24 hrs is no longer > >>> ----- >valid? Has our memory just failed and it never was 24 > >>> ----- >hrs? Does the 24 hrs. come from some other source? > >>> ----- >What are some of your policies on modifying existing CPVC? > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >Chris Cahill, P.E. > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >Fire Protection Engineer > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >763-658-4483 > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >763-658-4921 fax > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >Mail: P.O. Box 69 > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > Waverly, MN 55390 > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > Waverly, MN 55390 > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >_______________________________________________ > >>> ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> ----- >[email protected] > >>> ----- > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> ----- > > >>> ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >>> ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >> Todd G. Williams, PE > >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >> Stonington, Connecticut > >> www.fpdc.com > >> 860.535.2080 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > >> > > > > > > > We are in the middle of renewing our general liability insurance and > every insurer wants a mandatory 24 hour cure time on CPVC regardless of > size, ambient temperature or whether renovation or new. We have even had > > two companies that would refuse to insure if the 24 hour cure time did > not become company policy. > Jim Deason > Priority Fire Protection, Inc. > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
