Which begs the question why do we have standards such as 13R and 13D. The answer is simple to get affordable life safety sprinkler systems into the adopted building/fire codes. Without that reference they are merely model standards which sit on the shelf collecting dust.
Agreed however that these standards are being misapplied and that needs to be corrected. So in the end if the people get out the goal of these two standards has been met, and that goes for firefighter safety as well since having to rescue people is the toughest thing a firefighter will ever do. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Firefighter Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randy Knutson Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR Can I throw my 2 cents out there? 7,300 square foot house. That's at least a $2,000,000 million dollar property where I'm from. When do you say "hey, we need to protect the property too!" A BBQ left unattended on a back patio could (yes I said could) take the whole house down even if it had a 13D system within. We'll protect non-combustible restaurants with NFPA 13 systems when they are 6,000 sq ft with fire lanes and fire hydrants in the parking lots, but a house framed with cardboards second cousin (the light weight engineered floor joist) is protected with a system capable of flowing 60gpm tops. I am aware of two instances where 13R system didn't protect a building from a fire started under an outside eave. Luckily on both accounts the fire departments had good access and no one was injured. As I said my 2 pennys worth, Randy Knutson Shilo Automatic Sprinkler, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR Normally you are right on George (I'll take a virtual beer for that virtual plug) ....but this one is a little greyer. The original post said "because of it's remoteness from the street." You get into IFC 503.1.1 and access roads. There is a little interpretation allowed in this section. Sounds like he's using his authority under exception #1 to increase the 150' dimension for NFPA 13 but won't for 13R or 13D. Now I don't personally think he gets to choose from the list when the exception says 13, 13R OR 13D. I believe the or is the designers choice. Exception #2 could also be being used - "cannot" do the road, doesn't really matter the reason. With "cannot" AHJ is free to use and alternate, he says cannot = 13. Of course he's missing #3 which is the exception for one or two houses or U occupancy. Now if they have an out building and house they still have not more than 2. Perhaps there is 3 building then you are back to exception #1 and #2. Again most important designer gets to choose which exception. Don't overlook 503.1.2. Mike could be from a snow belt and/or mountains and the AHJ is saying two roads are needed for everything as a way to get more sprinklers. Great but 13 is a little much for a house strictly code wise IMHO. But the AHJ certainly could be saying 2 roads or 13 under his authority in 503.1.2. All that works without any amendment. Don't get me wrong AHJ drive me nuts as well. I won't be as detailed but IFC 508 has power for the AHJ similar to IFC 503.1.1. So there appears to be some basis for the 'cuz in this case. We may not like it but there is wiggle room here. Details will shed some light. Mike certainly needs to find out where the AHJ is coming from and he may be very disappointed to have found a sharp AHJ that knows how to get his way legally - vs. the nitwits (most lurker AHJ's excluded) who try to get their way by being bullies. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR Gentlemen: Stop circling the wagons! Go back to the original post. " An AHJ wants a 13 system in a " Most AHJs would want a #13 system in every building. And if they have a properly adopted local amendment, they can require this. If they don't, then you look at the adopted building code the AHJ is empowered to enforce, and if it doe not require #13 for SFD's, then he can want Ed McMahon to show up on his doorstep with a check for a million dollars, but Ed doesn't have to divert his checks from keeping his 100,000 SF house if he doesn't want to because "wants" isn't the same thing as "legally required". With all the debate about PE ineptness on this Forum (choir members in attendance excepted, of course), why would we accept the AHJ's proclamations as if they contain more substance just because he's an AHJ? "JUST SAY NO!" when they try to enforce their beliefs instead of the ADOPTED CODE. We had a pump test interrupted couple weeks ago when the AHJ asked us to use a calibrated gauge. There was NO BASIS IN CODE for this request. Our pump dude had a calibrated gauge with a date noted on it, so we didn't use the new ones out of the box we brought along. 30 emails between Ken H and the AHJ later, we came to an understanding of each other's positions. Maybe they'll adopt it. But unless you want to do bucket tests in ESFR warehouses, there is no reason for you to jump thru hoops that -when carefully examined- don't exist. glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR Mike, If you have to do a 13 system, you can use the "dwelling unit" design. That may help some. What about the attic? Do you have to sprinkler it? Cliff Whitfield, SET Fire Design, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: 13 system in SFR An AHJ wants a 13 system in a 7,300 sqft house because of it's remoteness from the street. Is the best I can do is calculate 900 sqft because of it being light hazard with ceilings less that 12' high? Or can I reduce the area more some how? Please help. 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