I was in the context of the discussion. In this case the wrong AHJ needs to
demonstrate 13 is the appropriate standard which we know he can't without
amended codes.
What I see you describing is a failure to communicate i.e. I forgot to tell
you the hazard or ceiling elevation. You in plan review cite sections
14.1.3(7) that require a hazard statement and an incorrect remote area
sq.ft. 11.2.3.2. I certainly kick myself you know where for the issue and
correct it. So you've shown why my design is not compliant with the code.
Exactly what I had stated. You can't just return it and say not approved
and not much more, prove the plan is compliant. You've got to tell me why
you think it's not compliant. And certainly for expedience I better be
telling you the hazard and elevation.
We're on the same page but it doesn't work like that when an AHJ goes
outside the code as appears to be the case in the original context of the
question. If an AHJ is aware of the 3 standards they certainly now what
each is intended for. The AHJ has apparently ignored this fact and is
making thing up (or so it seems). Perhaps there is a legal ordinance that
supports him in this town. But the AHJ is on the hook to prove the 13D is
wrong. I can't prove 13D is right, the AHJ has already ignored what's
written (the law).
Your generalization of "If you can show me it in the code then you can do
it" is the problem with most AHJ that are difficult. Now I think I know you
are not one of them. If it's wrong or you think it's wrong you cite the
standard. We may have a discussion about what that section means but
ultimately in a legal context you have to show the judge why you are right
if I appeal.
My reason for reversing what you said is too many people on both sides
believe you or the statement and it leads to other AHJ's getting away with
what they want instead of the law. You're the reasonable one and I know
what you said is true to you but it's not to a good deal of the rest of the
world. If we all understood and AHJ is the law and has the burden of proof
in a legal context I believe most of the frustrating problems would
disappear. Of course these other AHJ's would have to actually learn the
code - what a refreshing thought - all AHJ's and contractor actually knowing
what the code said. I don't have hope for the PE's we rail against.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
Waverly, MN 55390
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR
Hi Chris,
Apples and Oranges. In the context of the discussion, i.e. what a
designer can do, it's the designers responsibility to "demonstrate
compliance". For example, if you submit sprinkler plans and don't
declare a hazard we reject them based on the fact they we aren't able to
determine compliance with the standard. The hazard classification is
provided for in the sprinkler standard. Likewise if you want to take
the QR Reduction Credit you need to tell us otherwise we're on different
pages.
But lets dispense with the formalities for a moment, wouldn't you agree
that submitting a code reference along with the design simplifies plan
review and thus approval ?.
So why not do what expedites the process ?
John Drucker
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Cahill
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR
Sorry John, as a law enforcement official you are obligated to show me
it's wrong. I have no obligation to prove I'm right in any legal
context (well except maybe with the IRS). Burden of proof is on the
gov't. And in MN an AHJ has to point out the deficiency in writing and
give a reasonable time to comply before the gov't (AHJ) can take any
legal action.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
Waverly, MN 55390
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Drucker
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR
Thom,
Real simple, I'm from Missouri, If you can show me it in the code then
you can do it.
As for money, agree 100% not the pervue of a municipal AHJ, and frankly
we are best left out of it which is why we just want to know how much
equipment for permitting purposes and not what it cost.
John Drucker
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR
George:
Just so you know where it came from the McMansion's are now being
replaced by the "McRanchion's" (Yes my own word, soon to be added to all
e-space word searches.)Buy a few hundred Ac. Hire a ranch manager, build
him a 1800Sf house, then build your 12,000 Sf part time residence, barn
and riding arena and claim "Ag" as your property tax bracket.
Of course if they need the tax break from Ag, they surly can't afford
anything more than the minimum 13D? Well who say's they need more than
13D?
Life Safety is the goal, and we all deserve equal access to that. So if
you have a McRanchion or a Tract Ranch house, both deserve the 13D
protection of a life safety system. For those that CAN afford more and
want to pay for it OK! But it should not be the AHJ that decides who can
and can't afford more.
It's that same old thing one AHJ we deal with allows 13D unabridged for
up to 5000Sf, a 13D 3three head design over 5000Sf, and a 13D 4 head
design @ 0.10 for any size home with a ceiling pitch over 8/12. (I don't
make these up, I just have to follow them.)
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George
Church
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 13 system in SFR
"Nothing prevents an owner from increasing the level of protection
commiserate with the level of investment in a McMansion."
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