I agree with you, AHJ's can fix this by rejecting plans that don't meet the requirements of 13 or whatever guideline is being used. Till this happens it will continue cause owners of sprinkler companies don't want the designers to devote enough time to cpvc in comparison to steel.
Jim Johnston, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Inland Fire Protection, Inc 1100 Ahtanum Road Yakima, WA 98903 Phone 509-248-4471 Fax 509-248-1180 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Autry, David [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:04 AM To: [email protected] Subject: CPVC vs Steel Please point to me where in NFPA 13 that states plastic drawings require less detail than steel drawings. I'll say it again, Sprinkler drawings are sprinkler drawings. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings The reason for less time is less detail. CPVC drawings are much more like preliminary or conceptual plans prepared by a consultant than they are like installation shop drawings done by a contractor. The itemized differences are too many to list. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, David Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings "CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the same level of shop drawing detail." Understood. NFPA doesn't care if it's prefabricated or not, other than to say the contractor shall specify on the drawings any sections that are to be shop welded and the type of fittings or formations to be used. 14.1.3 (21) Sprinkler drawings are sprinkler drawings. I never understood why I was given one-third (or less) the time for a plastic job than a steel job. The requirements are the same. Maybe that's why I'm an AHJ now and not a Design Technician. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the same level of shop drawing detail. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, David Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings Along that same line: Why is the quality of "plastic" drawings always less than "steel" drawings? I always fought with my bosses over this. NFPA Chapter 14 (2002, Edition) makes has no different requirement for the two. Should I disapprove plastic drawings (think - cocktail napkins) that do not fulfill the requirements of Chapter 14? As for the as-built question: Don't send me any, I don't have the room or the time to deal with them. "Don't want 'em, Don't need 'em, Got no use for 'em" David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings I'm not sure I understand. What part of NFPA 13 says that you don't have to leave behind accurate system documentation? Yes, it seems to me there are a few steps in this process, and sometimes it's inconvenient and time consuming to take all those steps, but, again, where does it say you leave behind something that doesn't match what you installed, including the AHJ approval? Maybe I'll turn this around and ask what items on the NFPA 13 working drawing / hydraulic calc lists have to be correct, and what items can be approximate and maybe corrected later on another set of documents called "as-builts", but only if you find a requirement to submit as-builts? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings From: <[email protected]> Date: Thu, March 26, 2009 10:12 am To: <[email protected]> You got it bucko! Con sarnt contraktors always trying to cheat the system out of its due! It's downright Un-American to not follow the plan, people got ta eat ya know! ;) Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings So we should submit preliminary plans and get them permitted (A.22.1), submit working plans and get them approved (22.1.1 & A.22.1), get the permission of the AHJ every time we deviate from the approved working plan (22.1.2) and after all our deviations are approved we should submit the "corrected working plans" (Bill Brooks) for approval? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler 21605 N. Central Ave Phoenix, AZ 85024 P: 623.580.7836 F: 623.434.3420 C: 602.763.4160 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings Then there's the contractual thing, where they make minor changes like the ceiling guy turns the pattern 90* or shifts it, but they don't want to pay you to make the change. Why should we? Glc Under 2002 #13 still. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings Reality check. "As-builts" are a separate document. They are usually generated from the original design drawing and the fitter's field notes (if he kept them). As to an as-built being exact - good luck. Contractors may keep some notes on what they change, but they are hardly an EXACT duplicate of what is installed (and the assumption is that the designer has access to them). Consequently, as-built drawings at best give you an idea of major changes (main and sprinkler locations) but are far from perfect. There is not enough money or time in any design job for the designer to go out and map out every piece of pipe installed. "If pipe lengths and fittings have changed..."? Outside of number of heads, what else would change? So every job would have to be re-calced. Also, if we have to wait for AHJ approval before any changes are made (22.1.2), nothing will ever get finished. In a perfect world, you are right, but this ain't a perfect world. At 07:34 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: >I think the "as-built" term is a commonly used misnomer, somehow >distinguishing the document used to install a system from some "extra" >document you leave behind for the owner to use later. The proper term >for "as-built" should be "corrected working plan" representing the >completion of something that's required from the beginning. I'm not >saying the as-built has to be cadded up like the original. NFPA 13 is >silent on this. However, the drawing left behind has to be EXACTLY what >is installed, and that redlined drawing has to have the AHJ approval in >some manner (22.1.2). If pipe lengths or fittings have changed, then >"corrected hydraulic calculations" are also required. Otherwise the >installer has been paid but hasn't completed the job. > >Perhaps our frequent AHJ contributors could weigh in on this one as >well. > >Bill Brooks > >William N. Brooks, P.E. >Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. >372 Wilett Drive >Severna Park, MD 21146 >410-544-3620 Phone >410-544-3032 FAX >412-400-6528 Cell > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings >From: "larryshulman" <[email protected]> >Date: Wed, March 25, 2009 6:11 pm >To: <[email protected]> > >Working plans are for the installation phase, while the "as-built" set >is intended for use following the installation. That's why NFPA 13 is >silent on the as-built requirement but it appears in NFPA 25. > >I agree this appears somewhat awkward, but I suppose there's logic in >there somewhere. When you find it, so advise:) > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:45 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > >Okay, but NFPA 25 pertains to maintenance of systems, not installation. >I understand NFPA is saying: IF there are as-builts, they will be >stored, etc. > >Forest Wilson > >Project Manager >Cherokee Fire Protection Co. >3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900 >Dayton OH 45434 > >ph: 937-376-2333 >fx: 614-455-4324 >cell: 937-307-5647 > >Visit our blog: _www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com_ >(http://www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com/) > > >FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES!! > > > >NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be solely >for >the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and >may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. >It is not > >intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the named >addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named addressee). >It >should >not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have >received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it >from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the >sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire >Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free. > > > >In a message dated 3/25/2009 5:44:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >[email protected] writes: > >Actually you'll find it in NFPA 25 as follows: > >" 12.3.2 As-built system installation drawings, original acceptance test >records, and device manufacturer's maintenance bulletins shall be >retained to assist in the proper care of the system and its >components." > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >**************Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479 >(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220635228x1201407499/aol?redi r=ht t >p:%2F%2Fad.doub >leclick.net%2Fclk%3B213153654%3B34689672%3Bo) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
