Saw a set of plans he marked "Rejected - Do Not Resubmit". Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, David Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings LOL Amen to that. Ever had a plan reviewed by The Texas State Board of Insurance back in the 80's? Well if you did (you know who I'm referring to) you made sure EVERYTHING was on the plan or it was rejected. After a couple of tries, he would mark the plans: "Rejected - Seek professional help" David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings Of course you get the occasional AHJ that won't accept a plan because in doesn't show the location of the deluge valve that isn't there because you're not using one. I think the list of 44 could be improved. On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Autry, David <[email protected]> wrote: > "CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the > same level of shop drawing detail." > > Understood. > > NFPA doesn't care if it's prefabricated or not, other than to say the contractor shall specify on the drawings any sections that are to be shop welded and the type of fittings or formations to be used. 14.1.3 (21) > > Sprinkler drawings are sprinkler drawings. > > I never understood why I was given one-third (or less) the time for a plastic job than a steel job. The requirements are the same. > > Maybe that's why I'm an AHJ now and not a Design Technician. > > > David Autry > Plans Examiner > Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office > 246 S. 14th Street > Lincoln, NE 68508 > 402-471-9659 > 402-471-3118 fax > www.sfm.ne.gov > > ** Note new email address: [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:07 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the > same level of shop drawing detail. > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Automatic Sprinkler > 21605 N. Central Ave > Phoenix, AZ 85024 > P: 623.580.7836 > F: 623.434.3420 > C: 602.763.4160 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, > David > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:03 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > Along that same line: > > Why is the quality of "plastic" drawings always less than "steel" > drawings? I always fought with my bosses over this. NFPA Chapter 14 > (2002, Edition) makes has no different requirement for the two. > Should I disapprove plastic drawings (think - cocktail napkins) that do > not fulfill the requirements of Chapter 14? > > As for the as-built question: Don't send me any, I don't have the room > or the time to deal with them. > "Don't want 'em, Don't need 'em, Got no use for 'em" > > David Autry > Plans Examiner > Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office > 246 S. 14th Street > Lincoln, NE 68508 > 402-471-9659 > 402-471-3118 fax > www.sfm.ne.gov > > ** Note new email address: [email protected] > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:46 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > I'm not sure I understand. What part of NFPA 13 says that you don't > have to leave behind accurate system documentation? Yes, it seems to me > there are a few steps in this process, and sometimes it's inconvenient > and time consuming to take all those steps, but, again, where does it > say you leave behind something that doesn't match what you installed, > including the AHJ approval? > > Maybe I'll turn this around and ask what items on the NFPA 13 working > drawing / hydraulic calc lists have to be correct, and what items can be > approximate and maybe corrected later on another set of documents called > "as-builts", but only if you find a requirement to submit as-builts? > > Bill Brooks > > William N. Brooks, P.E. > Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > 372 Wilett Drive > Severna Park, MD 21146 > 410-544-3620 Phone > 410-544-3032 FAX > 412-400-6528 Cell > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > From: <[email protected]> > Date: Thu, March 26, 2009 10:12 am > To: <[email protected]> > > You got it bucko! Con sarnt contraktors always trying to cheat the > system out of its due! It's downright Un-American to not follow the > plan, people got ta eat ya know! ;) > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [email protected] > http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, > Ron > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:03 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > So we should submit preliminary plans and get them permitted (A.22.1), > submit working plans and get them approved (22.1.1 & A.22.1), get the > permission of the AHJ every time we deviate from the approved working > plan (22.1.2) and after all our deviations are approved we should submit > the "corrected working plans" (Bill Brooks) for approval? > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Automatic Sprinkler > 21605 N. Central Ave > Phoenix, AZ 85024 > P: 623.580.7836 > F: 623.434.3420 > C: 602.763.4160 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George > Church > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:49 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > Then there's the contractual thing, where they make minor changes like > the ceiling guy turns the pattern 90* or shifts it, but they don't want > to pay you to make the change. Why should we? > > Glc > Under 2002 #13 still. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > Reality check. "As-builts" are a separate document. They are usually > generated from the original design drawing and the fitter's field notes > (if he kept them). As to an as-built being exact - good luck. > Contractors may keep some notes on what they change, but they are hardly > an EXACT duplicate of what is installed (and the assumption is that the > designer has access to them). Consequently, as-built drawings at best > give you an idea of major changes (main and sprinkler locations) but are > far from perfect. There is not enough money or time in any design job > for the designer to go out and map out every piece of pipe installed. > "If pipe lengths and fittings have changed..."? Outside of number of > heads, what else would change? So every job would have to be re-calced. > Also, if we have to wait for AHJ approval before any changes are made > (22.1.2), nothing will ever get finished. In a perfect world, you are > right, but this ain't a perfect world. > > > At 07:34 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: >>I think the "as-built" term is a commonly used misnomer, somehow >>distinguishing the document used to install a system from some "extra" >>document you leave behind for the owner to use later. The proper term >>for "as-built" should be "corrected working plan" representing the >>completion of something that's required from the beginning. I'm not >>saying the as-built has to be cadded up like the original. NFPA 13 is >>silent on this. However, the drawing left behind has to be EXACTLY > what >>is installed, and that redlined drawing has to have the AHJ approval in >>some manner (22.1.2). If pipe lengths or fittings have changed, then >>"corrected hydraulic calculations" are also required. Otherwise the >>installer has been paid but hasn't completed the job. >> >>Perhaps our frequent AHJ contributors could weigh in on this one as >>well. >> >>Bill Brooks >> >>William N. Brooks, P.E. >>Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. >>372 Wilett Drive >>Severna Park, MD 21146 >>410-544-3620 Phone >>410-544-3032 FAX >>412-400-6528 Cell >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings >>From: "larryshulman" <[email protected]> >>Date: Wed, March 25, 2009 6:11 pm >>To: <[email protected]> >> >>Working plans are for the installation phase, while the "as-built" set >>is intended for use following the installation. That's why NFPA 13 is >>silent on the as-built requirement but it appears in NFPA 25. >> >>I agree this appears somewhat awkward, but I suppose there's logic in >>there somewhere. When you find it, so advise:) >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>[email protected] >>Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:45 PM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: Re: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings >> >>Okay, but NFPA 25 pertains to maintenance of systems, not installation. >>I understand NFPA is saying: IF there are as-builts, they will be >>stored, etc. >> >>Forest Wilson >> >>Project Manager >>Cherokee Fire Protection Co. >>3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900 >>Dayton OH 45434 >> >>ph: 937-376-2333 >>fx: 614-455-4324 >>cell: 937-307-5647 >> >>Visit our blog: _www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com_ >>(http://www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com/) >> >> >>FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES!! >> >> >> >>NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be > solely >>for >>the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and >>may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. >>It is not >> >>intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the > named >>addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named > addressee). >>It >>should >>not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have >>received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it >>from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the >>sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire >>Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free. >> >> >> >>In a message dated 3/25/2009 5:44:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>[email protected] writes: >> >>Actually you'll find it in NFPA 25 as follows: >> >>" 12.3.2 As-built system installation drawings, original acceptance > test >>records, and device manufacturer's maintenance bulletins shall be >>retained to assist in the proper care of the system and its >>components." >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>[email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >>**************Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479 >>(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220635228x1201407499/aol?red i > r=ht > t >>p:%2F%2Fad.doub >>leclick.net%2Fclk%3B213153654%3B34689672%3Bo) >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>[email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>[email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
