I've found that CPVC drawings require more detail specifically because they
are not pre-fabricated...
Steel piping systems typically either "fit" and work pretty close to
as-drawn...or they don't.
When you pre-fabricate a steel piping system, much of the design details are
"built-in" to the fabrication. Also, tie-down dimensions typically given on
cross mains, branchlines, etc. will dictate where the final head location is
(based on the pre-fabricated piping dimensions).
In a CPVC system, the fitter is the fabricator so you must give them
specific tie-down dimensions to pretty much all devices, piping,
etc....otherwise, you'll get exactly what we are discussing in this
thread...a "as-built" system significantly different than the original plan.
I've designed plenty of both types of systems so I understand the argument
that CPVC is somehow "less intensive"...However, the only "less intensive"
part is not having to create cut-sheets for the piping. The plan
preparation should be the same if not more (i.e. more tie-downs, more
hangers on CPVC require more coordination with structure, etc.)
Nathan
Global Fire Engineering, Inc.
Tel: (813) 659-2700 | Fax: (813) 659-2727
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, David
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: CPVC vs Steel
Please point to me where in NFPA 13 that states plastic drawings require
less detail than steel drawings.
I'll say it again, Sprinkler drawings are sprinkler drawings.
David Autry
Plans Examiner
Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office
246 S. 14th Street
Lincoln, NE 68508
402-471-9659
402-471-3118 fax
www.sfm.ne.gov
** Note new email address: [email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
The reason for less time is less detail. CPVC drawings are much more like
preliminary or conceptual plans prepared by a consultant than they are like
installation shop drawings done by a contractor. The itemized differences
are too many to list.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 85024
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, David
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
"CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the same
level of shop drawing detail."
Understood.
NFPA doesn't care if it's prefabricated or not, other than to say the
contractor shall specify on the drawings any sections that are to be shop
welded and the type of fittings or formations to be used. 14.1.3
(21)
Sprinkler drawings are sprinkler drawings.
I never understood why I was given one-third (or less) the time for a
plastic job than a steel job. The requirements are the same.
Maybe that's why I'm an AHJ now and not a Design Technician.
David Autry
Plans Examiner
Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office
246 S. 14th Street
Lincoln, NE 68508
402-471-9659
402-471-3118 fax
www.sfm.ne.gov
** Note new email address: [email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the same
level of shop drawing detail.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
21605 N. Central Ave
Phoenix, AZ 85024
P: 623.580.7836
F: 623.434.3420
C: 602.763.4160
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, David
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
Along that same line:
Why is the quality of "plastic" drawings always less than "steel"
drawings? I always fought with my bosses over this. NFPA Chapter 14 (2002,
Edition) makes has no different requirement for the two.
Should I disapprove plastic drawings (think - cocktail napkins) that do not
fulfill the requirements of Chapter 14?
As for the as-built question: Don't send me any, I don't have the room or
the time to deal with them.
"Don't want 'em, Don't need 'em, Got no use for 'em"
David Autry
Plans Examiner
Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office
246 S. 14th Street
Lincoln, NE 68508
402-471-9659
402-471-3118 fax
www.sfm.ne.gov
** Note new email address: [email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
I'm not sure I understand. What part of NFPA 13 says that you don't have to
leave behind accurate system documentation? Yes, it seems to me there are a
few steps in this process, and sometimes it's inconvenient and time
consuming to take all those steps, but, again, where does it say you leave
behind something that doesn't match what you installed, including the AHJ
approval?
Maybe I'll turn this around and ask what items on the NFPA 13 working
drawing / hydraulic calc lists have to be correct, and what items can be
approximate and maybe corrected later on another set of documents called
"as-builts", but only if you find a requirement to submit as-builts?
Bill Brooks
William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, March 26, 2009 10:12 am
To: <[email protected]>
You got it bucko! Con sarnt contraktors always trying to cheat the system
out of its due! It's downright Un-American to not follow the plan, people
got ta eat ya know! ;)
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[email protected]
http://www.ch2m.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
So we should submit preliminary plans and get them permitted (A.22.1),
submit working plans and get them approved (22.1.1 & A.22.1), get the
permission of the AHJ every time we deviate from the approved working plan
(22.1.2) and after all our deviations are approved we should submit the
"corrected working plans" (Bill Brooks) for approval?
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
21605 N. Central Ave
Phoenix, AZ 85024
P: 623.580.7836
F: 623.434.3420
C: 602.763.4160
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
Then there's the contractual thing, where they make minor changes like the
ceiling guy turns the pattern 90* or shifts it, but they don't want to pay
you to make the change. Why should we?
Glc
Under 2002 #13 still.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
Reality check. "As-builts" are a separate document. They are usually
generated from the original design drawing and the fitter's field notes (if
he kept them). As to an as-built being exact - good luck.
Contractors may keep some notes on what they change, but they are hardly an
EXACT duplicate of what is installed (and the assumption is that the
designer has access to them). Consequently, as-built drawings at best give
you an idea of major changes (main and sprinkler locations) but are far from
perfect. There is not enough money or time in any design job for the
designer to go out and map out every piece of pipe installed.
"If pipe lengths and fittings have changed..."? Outside of number of heads,
what else would change? So every job would have to be re-calced.
Also, if we have to wait for AHJ approval before any changes are made
(22.1.2), nothing will ever get finished. In a perfect world, you are right,
but this ain't a perfect world.
At 07:34 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote:
>I think the "as-built" term is a commonly used misnomer, somehow
>distinguishing the document used to install a system from some "extra"
>document you leave behind for the owner to use later. The proper term
>for "as-built" should be "corrected working plan" representing the
>completion of something that's required from the beginning. I'm not
>saying the as-built has to be cadded up like the original. NFPA 13 is
>silent on this. However, the drawing left behind has to be EXACTLY
what
>is installed, and that redlined drawing has to have the AHJ approval in
>some manner (22.1.2). If pipe lengths or fittings have changed, then
>"corrected hydraulic calculations" are also required. Otherwise the
>installer has been paid but hasn't completed the job.
>
>Perhaps our frequent AHJ contributors could weigh in on this one as
>well.
>
>Bill Brooks
>
>William N. Brooks, P.E.
>Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
>372 Wilett Drive
>Severna Park, MD 21146
>410-544-3620 Phone
>410-544-3032 FAX
>412-400-6528 Cell
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
>From: "larryshulman" <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, March 25, 2009 6:11 pm
>To: <[email protected]>
>
>Working plans are for the installation phase, while the "as-built" set
>is intended for use following the installation. That's why NFPA 13 is
>silent on the as-built requirement but it appears in NFPA 25.
>
>I agree this appears somewhat awkward, but I suppose there's logic in
>there somewhere. When you find it, so advise:)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected]
>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
>[email protected]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:45 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings
>
>Okay, but NFPA 25 pertains to maintenance of systems, not installation.
>I understand NFPA is saying: IF there are as-builts, they will be
>stored, etc.
>
>Forest Wilson
>
>Project Manager
>Cherokee Fire Protection Co.
>3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900
>Dayton OH 45434
>
>ph: 937-376-2333
>fx: 614-455-4324
>cell: 937-307-5647
>
>Visit our blog: _www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com_
>(http://www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com/)
>
>
>FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES!!
>
>
>
>NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be
solely
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>It is not
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>
>
>
>In a message dated 3/25/2009 5:44:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>[email protected] writes:
>
>Actually you'll find it in NFPA 25 as follows:
>
>" 12.3.2 As-built system installation drawings, original acceptance
test
>records, and device manufacturer's maintenance bulletins shall be
>retained to assist in the proper care of the system and its
>components."
>
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080
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