Of course you get the occasional AHJ that won't accept a plan because in doesn't show the location of the deluge valve that isn't there because you're not using one. I think the list of 44 could be improved.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Autry, David <[email protected]> wrote: > "CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the > same level of shop drawing detail." > > Understood. > > NFPA doesn't care if it's prefabricated or not, other than to say the > contractor shall specify on the drawings any sections that are to be shop > welded and the type of fittings or formations to be used. 14.1.3 (21) > > Sprinkler drawings are sprinkler drawings. > > I never understood why I was given one-third (or less) the time for a plastic > job than a steel job. The requirements are the same. > > Maybe that's why I'm an AHJ now and not a Design Technician. > > > David Autry > Plans Examiner > Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office > 246 S. 14th Street > Lincoln, NE 68508 > 402-471-9659 > 402-471-3118 fax > www.sfm.ne.gov > > ** Note new email address: [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:07 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > CPVC is not prefabricated like steel pipe so we don't bother with the > same level of shop drawing detail. > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Automatic Sprinkler > 21605 N. Central Ave > Phoenix, AZ 85024 > P: 623.580.7836 > F: 623.434.3420 > C: 602.763.4160 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, > David > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:03 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > Along that same line: > > Why is the quality of "plastic" drawings always less than "steel" > drawings? I always fought with my bosses over this. NFPA Chapter 14 > (2002, Edition) makes has no different requirement for the two. > Should I disapprove plastic drawings (think - cocktail napkins) that do > not fulfill the requirements of Chapter 14? > > As for the as-built question: Don't send me any, I don't have the room > or the time to deal with them. > "Don't want 'em, Don't need 'em, Got no use for 'em" > > David Autry > Plans Examiner > Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office > 246 S. 14th Street > Lincoln, NE 68508 > 402-471-9659 > 402-471-3118 fax > www.sfm.ne.gov > > ** Note new email address: [email protected] > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:46 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > I'm not sure I understand. What part of NFPA 13 says that you don't > have to leave behind accurate system documentation? Yes, it seems to me > there are a few steps in this process, and sometimes it's inconvenient > and time consuming to take all those steps, but, again, where does it > say you leave behind something that doesn't match what you installed, > including the AHJ approval? > > Maybe I'll turn this around and ask what items on the NFPA 13 working > drawing / hydraulic calc lists have to be correct, and what items can be > approximate and maybe corrected later on another set of documents called > "as-builts", but only if you find a requirement to submit as-builts? > > Bill Brooks > > William N. Brooks, P.E. > Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > 372 Wilett Drive > Severna Park, MD 21146 > 410-544-3620 Phone > 410-544-3032 FAX > 412-400-6528 Cell > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > From: <[email protected]> > Date: Thu, March 26, 2009 10:12 am > To: <[email protected]> > > You got it bucko! Con sarnt contraktors always trying to cheat the > system out of its due! It's downright Un-American to not follow the > plan, people got ta eat ya know! ;) > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [email protected] > http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, > Ron > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:03 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > So we should submit preliminary plans and get them permitted (A.22.1), > submit working plans and get them approved (22.1.1 & A.22.1), get the > permission of the AHJ every time we deviate from the approved working > plan (22.1.2) and after all our deviations are approved we should submit > the "corrected working plans" (Bill Brooks) for approval? > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Automatic Sprinkler > 21605 N. Central Ave > Phoenix, AZ 85024 > P: 623.580.7836 > F: 623.434.3420 > C: 602.763.4160 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George > Church > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:49 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > Then there's the contractual thing, where they make minor changes like > the ceiling guy turns the pattern 90* or shifts it, but they don't want > to pay you to make the change. Why should we? > > Glc > Under 2002 #13 still. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > Reality check. "As-builts" are a separate document. They are usually > generated from the original design drawing and the fitter's field notes > (if he kept them). As to an as-built being exact - good luck. > Contractors may keep some notes on what they change, but they are hardly > an EXACT duplicate of what is installed (and the assumption is that the > designer has access to them). Consequently, as-built drawings at best > give you an idea of major changes (main and sprinkler locations) but are > far from perfect. There is not enough money or time in any design job > for the designer to go out and map out every piece of pipe installed. > "If pipe lengths and fittings have changed..."? Outside of number of > heads, what else would change? So every job would have to be re-calced. > Also, if we have to wait for AHJ approval before any changes are made > (22.1.2), nothing will ever get finished. In a perfect world, you are > right, but this ain't a perfect world. > > > At 07:34 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: >>I think the "as-built" term is a commonly used misnomer, somehow >>distinguishing the document used to install a system from some "extra" >>document you leave behind for the owner to use later. The proper term >>for "as-built" should be "corrected working plan" representing the >>completion of something that's required from the beginning. I'm not >>saying the as-built has to be cadded up like the original. NFPA 13 is >>silent on this. However, the drawing left behind has to be EXACTLY > what >>is installed, and that redlined drawing has to have the AHJ approval in >>some manner (22.1.2). If pipe lengths or fittings have changed, then >>"corrected hydraulic calculations" are also required. Otherwise the >>installer has been paid but hasn't completed the job. >> >>Perhaps our frequent AHJ contributors could weigh in on this one as >>well. >> >>Bill Brooks >> >>William N. Brooks, P.E. >>Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. >>372 Wilett Drive >>Severna Park, MD 21146 >>410-544-3620 Phone >>410-544-3032 FAX >>412-400-6528 Cell >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings >>From: "larryshulman" <[email protected]> >>Date: Wed, March 25, 2009 6:11 pm >>To: <[email protected]> >> >>Working plans are for the installation phase, while the "as-built" set >>is intended for use following the installation. That's why NFPA 13 is >>silent on the as-built requirement but it appears in NFPA 25. >> >>I agree this appears somewhat awkward, but I suppose there's logic in >>there somewhere. When you find it, so advise:) >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>[email protected] >>Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:45 PM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: Re: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings >> >>Okay, but NFPA 25 pertains to maintenance of systems, not installation. >>I understand NFPA is saying: IF there are as-builts, they will be >>stored, etc. >> >>Forest Wilson >> >>Project Manager >>Cherokee Fire Protection Co. >>3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900 >>Dayton OH 45434 >> >>ph: 937-376-2333 >>fx: 614-455-4324 >>cell: 937-307-5647 >> >>Visit our blog: _www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com_ >>(http://www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com/) >> >> >>FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES!! >> >> >> >>NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be > solely >>for >>the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and >>may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. >>It is not >> >>intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the > named >>addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named > addressee). >>It >>should >>not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have >>received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it >>from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the >>sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire >>Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free. >> >> >> >>In a message dated 3/25/2009 5:44:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>[email protected] writes: >> >>Actually you'll find it in NFPA 25 as follows: >> >>" 12.3.2 As-built system installation drawings, original acceptance > test >>records, and device manufacturer's maintenance bulletins shall be >>retained to assist in the proper care of the system and its >>components." >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>[email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >>**************Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479 >>(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220635228x1201407499/aol?redi > r=ht > t >>p:%2F%2Fad.doub >>leclick.net%2Fclk%3B213153654%3B34689672%3Bo) >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>[email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>[email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
