I won't argue with your post, I totally agree, but had more than one water department that would not under any circumstances permit AF of any flavor to be used in a sprinkler system. Believe me I tried to argue the point but to no avail. So its always better to double check before making the assumption. You just never know what bright idea someone may have come up with.
Besides, abuse of AF may cause global warming, the impending ice age and mis-alignment of the planets, you wouldn't want to be responsible for all that would ya? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:37 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM "Careful with the AF, not all jurisdictions permit its use." I won't argue the logical correctness of your statement because it would only take one for you to be right. They may say they don't permit but it's probably not legal to not permit. With an RPZ and/or food grade AF they are on thin ground legally. You have industrial processes with things much worse than AF. Read some ingredients lists it's a food additive. Quick survey in the office I find glycerin in my Girl Scout Samoa's and in a pound cake. True I wouldn't drink it straight either but it's not that bad of stuff. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:08 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM Careful with the AF, not all jurisdictions permit its use. Check first with health department, water purveyor and if the nursing home is a State facility, check with that agency as well. 13R puts nursing homes into Light Hazard and allows dry pipe systems but takes you back to NFPA 13 when AF, Dry and PA systems are installed. (13R, 2007, 5.3.3.) So with that, you then play by NFPA 13 rules for calcs, heads, installation, etc. As LH occupancy you could use residential heads or QR for new installations (NFPA 13, 2007, 8.3.3), QR per 13, 2007, 3.6.2.9, Res. per 8.4.5 where listed for dry systems. So it makes sense for the system to have been specified as being per NFPA 13 instead of 13R. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM Anti-freeze makes the problem/question moot. In most ways AF IMHO is better/easier/less risk. Only down side is when you have to drain for whatever reason but that's manageable. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:22 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM I believe that most "Nursing Homes" fall under light hazard, not residential. This is significant with dry systems since the water delivery time is very different. Table 7.2.3.6.1 Dry System Water Delivery Hazard Number of Most Remote Sprinklers Initially Open Maximum Time of Water Delivery Residential 1head 15 seconds Light 1head 60 seconds Ordinary I 2heads 50 seconds Ordinary II 2heads 50 seconds Extra I 4heads 45 seconds Extra II 4heads 45 seconds High piled 4heads 40 seconds Thom McMahon, SET -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM I believe you still must use residential sprinklers IF it is residential. I do not know of any listed for dry use. You may have to cover the pipe and use listed attic sprinklers to protect any CPVC and the like, and run it wet. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-387-1163 Facsimile [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Arthur Tiroly Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM The top floor residential suits are supplied by the dry system in the attic. My main question - does the time delay compromise the life safety of the elderly housing residential occupants? Arthur Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection Design Tiroly and Associates 3300 King Ave Cleveland, OH 44114 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM The dry system in the attic falls under 13, 13R allows the omission. If 13 is specified, that may be the reason why. I have seen and done it in nursing homes. Also you will see this in 4 story and under hotel/motels depending on owner. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-387-1163 Facsimile [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Arthur Tiroly Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:38 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RESIDENTIAL OCCOPANCY DRY SYSTEM It is my understanding that sprinklers in an elderly housing assisted living apartment facility is primarily life safety. Can a large dry system installed in an attic with the usual time delays of water delivered to the end head compromise the life safety aspect of the sprinkler system? The attic has 2 large air handlers with gas fired heating + AC and is fully sprinklered but considered unheated. It is just 2 stories and 13R could be used but 13 is specified. Is the dry system acceptable for life safety? Arthur Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection Design Tiroly and Associates 3300 King Ave Cleveland, OH 44114 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
