Mike, Here are two examples;
N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.14 - 2006 IBC/NJ 903.3.1.2.1 Balconies and decks. Sprinkler protection shall be provided for exterior balconies, decks and ground floor patios of dwelling units where the building is of Type V construction. Sidewall sprinklers that are used to protect such areas shall be permitted to be located such that their deflectors are within 1 inch (25mm) to 6 inches (152 mm) below the structural members and a maximum distance of 14 inches (356 mm) below the deck of the exterior balconies and decks that are constructed of open wood joist construction. N.J.A.C. 5:23-6.29 Mixed use buildings (c) Alarms: In any nonresidential use located below one or more dwelling units (including single room occupancies), when the work area exceeds 50 percent of the gross enclosed floor area of the nonresidential use, single or multiple station smoke alarms shall be installed in the nonresidential portion(s) of the building in accordance with NFPA 72 and provided with an audible alarm located within each dwelling unit of the residential portion of the building. The alarms shall be AC powered with battery back-up. Hard-wired, interconnected smoke alarms installed throughout the building shall be accepted as meeting this requirement. Are either of these applications compliant with the listing standard and or listing ? So in essence if the promulgating authority prescribes it so it shall be, obviously they have that authority. In the case of the "Preaction/Deluge Abort" I am not aware of a prescriptive regulation or code section that requires this. In other words we fall back on the adopted standards, listings etc, i.e. its not permitted. Hope that helps John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official Disclaimer-This is only my opinion, is not binding on anyone. Consult with the authority having jurisdiction. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action abort John, Potter manufactures a release panel that has a zone that can be programmed as an abort circuit or a supervisory zone. As part of our listing we were required by UL to state that the abort circuit on pre-action and deluge systems is not permitted by UL 864. In my opinion that means that programming the zone to be an abort circuit for a pre-action system would mean the panel would not be in compliance with UL & not be listed for that system. The statue, regulation or code requiring the abort circuit probably also requires a listed panel. So the statue, regulation or code would require something that cannot be accomplished, an abort switch on a listed pre-action panel. Regards mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Continuing the discussion, the answer to the question is simple does a statute, regulation or code prescribe an abort station on a deluge or preaction system ? Keep in mind that codes and standards are being written in positive language, i.e. whats permitted vs negative language, i.e. whats prohibited. Remember what state I'm from ?, Missouri. John Drucker -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:04 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction systems. If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be recognized as listed. Salvatore Izzo, P.E. Manager - Reliable Technical Services ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear "must be installed in accordance with the listing", or "product listed for the intended purpose". Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of "safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders" It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the "Uniform Construction Code Act" 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the "Uniform Construction Code" 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? ________________________________ From: Mike Henke <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. 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