Obviously the spec for this project was for a gaseous system that the EOR used and just changed any reference from gas to P.A. First clue that someone is practicing outside their area of expertise. Imagine the fun when he tries to review shop drawings.
Typically the first signal with be the smoke detectors, if they are cross zoned you have two distinct devices that agree that there is smoke present. Alarms are going off, who's responding? If the fire event continues then you will ultimately have a sprinkler open, releasing pressure in the system and allowing the P.A. valve to open, now you've got a fire, who's responding? In the D.I.P.A. system there's no real justification for an abort sequence. The owner has multiple alarms notifying him of an event in progress. Within the time frame of the first S.D. he has time to take corrective measures to manually correct the situation. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Justin Reid Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:17 AM To: [email protected] Cc: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Pre-action abort I think even in special hazard systems an abort switch is not allowed unless it is a deadman abort switch. However, for a pre- action system, if the room were large enough, you would need to be concerned with too many heads opening even with a deadman abort. Justin D. Reid, P.E. RLH Fire Protection 16735 Saticoy St. #110 Van Nuys, CA 91406 213-798-0251 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:20 AM, "John Drucker" <[email protected]> wrote: > Continuing the discussion, the answer to the question is simple does a > statute, regulation or code prescribe an abort station on a deluge or > preaction system ? > > Keep in mind that codes and standards are being written in positive > language, i.e. whats permitted vs negative language, i.e. whats > prohibited. Remember what state I'm from ?, Missouri. > > John Drucker > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sal > Izzo > (TECH- 103) > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:04 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Pre-action abort > > It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the > hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products > used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 > requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction > systems. > If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would > not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be > recognized as listed. > > Salvatore Izzo, P.E. > Manager - Reliable Technical Services > > > ________________________________________ > From: [email protected] > [[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker > [[email protected]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Pre-action abort > > Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would > assume. We often hear "must be installed in accordance with the > listing", or "product listed for the intended purpose". > > Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony > sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The > government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of > "safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders" > > It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like > this; > > 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the "Uniform Construction > Code Act" > 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the > "Uniform Construction Code" > 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 > IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. > 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 > Edition of NFPA-13 for example. > 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific > product. > 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the > product for fitness. > > I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal > levels. > > Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it > shall be. > > Hope that helps, > > John Drucker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jay Jay > Blocker > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Pre-action abort > > But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area > has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules > or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mike Henke <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM > Subject: RE: Pre-action abort > > It is prohibited by UL. > UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to > perform pre-action or deluge functions. > > Regards, > > mike > > Mike Henke CET > Sprinkler Product Manager > Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC > WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM > 866-572-3005 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Pre-action abort > > Question one: Why? > Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? > > There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or > disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would > be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an > operation anyway. > > With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what > in the world could another interruption accomplish? > > I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's > the application and reasoning behind the question? > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - > 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris > Cahill > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Pre-action abort > > Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action > (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent > system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a > surprise). > > > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > > Fire Protection Engineer > > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > > > 763-658-4483 > > 763-658-4921 fax > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: > This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is > privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, > intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the > individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations > are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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