Ok so here is another plug for AFSA convention. Several years ago we received as a for credit training class a full blown class on their "New" calculation program. The jest of the class is this:
This program using both fluid dynamics (Of an basically non compressible liquid, water) and a compressible gas (air) is about 6 levels above the Computational Fluid Dynamics programs that HVAC engineers rent for $3,000.00 per month, which will only do gas. The program took over a year for a PHD in advanced physic's (I'm think he is also a Nobel laurite, but that could be from another seminar) to write this program, after which TYCO tested it on different configurations for the next 6 months. We all know that a UL listing isn't cheap, and they don't sign off on something that they haven't tested or witnessed the testing. I can't do that kind of math and I don't personally know anyone that can, but if you have 10 or 20 years to play with the numbers, you'll still not get it. Some things in life we just have to accept, like cell phones actually work. Can I build one? No. but do I need to know how to build one just to use it? Disclaimer: I don't personally own any TYCO stock, but I did once see a original Picasso. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Johnston Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Slow responding dry pipe valves-FDT Ron, I haven't been following this too close (been actually doing some work) the software is meant to calc the water delivery time not necessarily the volume as I think you are thinking although it needs this? From what I understand Tyco did a great job at "selling" this to the 13 committee. From an engineers standpoint I think it's great if you can calc the delivery time, also from an engineers point I want to actually see the time it takes and not trust a program. I don't know how any AHJ would accept the time from a program and not actually see it for his or her sake. Jim Johnston, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Inland Fire Protection, Inc 1100 Ahtanum Road Yakima, WA 98903 Phone 509-248-4471 Fax 509-248-1180 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Ron Greenman [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Slow responding dry pipe valves-FDT Could be, and I guess I can goof, but the formula for measuring the volume of a cylinder has been around for a long time and as far as I can tell works pretty well. I also know that without being able to estimate a result I wouldn't know that I err far more often punching buttons on a calculator than I do writing equations on a white board or piece of paper. Who knows how many mistakes I make entering multiple data points into a complex program where I'm unable to even guess at what a likely result should look like? I have to be missing something here. I know all the committee guys are too honest to put something in a code that can only be accomplished with some expensive proprietary do-dad. On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Todd Williams<[email protected]> wrote: > Could it have something to do with the fact that the multi-thousand > dollar program is UL listed and your smelly feet aren't? > > > At 07:19 PM 6/17/2009, you wrote: >>As I read this it seems to say that the same rules apply as before but >>to prove the system size I have to use an approved computer program. >>Now I'm no math whiz but I can calculate the capacity of a bunch of >>tubes (pie is square times length equals cubic X, convert X cubes to >>cubic feet, convert the smelly feet to gallons, add up all the >>different sized tubes and....). Time consuming but why do I need a >>multi-thousand dollar program for a task that I can do with paper and >>pencil? >> >>On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Roland >>Huggins<[email protected]> wrote: >> > nothing changed (except for dwelling units). The 500 gal w/o QOD >> > or 750 gal limits still apply. The timed approach is just for >> > exceeding them. As for dwelling units, it is not 15 sec regardless of size. >> > >> > Roland >> > >> > On Jun 17, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Ron Greenman wrote: >> > >> >> So what drove the change from the old way of working trip times >> >> (under 500 gal. all was good, 500-750 gals. and either 60 seconds >> >> or QOD, over 750 gals. QOD and all is good)? was it due to systems >> >> failing due to too long trip times or was it a way to sell an >> >> expensive computer program? If due to failures did it happen in a >> >> cross section of buildings or in certain types of buildings and if >> >> the latter is it necessary to treat all systems equally? Certainly >> >> requirements to trip test everything to 60 seconds in years past >> >> was based on local requirements arrived at collectively by AHJs >> >> because they wanted it and it was complied with enough to become >> >> the usual thing to do until it became codified--first locally and >> >> then in 13. Where's the data that supported this costly change at >> >> point in this migration from what >> >> 13 said to what it says now? Enquiring minds want to know. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> >> >> >>-- >>Ron Greenman >>at home.... >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>[email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
