You are correct....the answer I got was "we don't know"........from the horse's mouth. Thanks for all of your help, I will let you know how it works out in a few hours.
Greg McGahan Operations Manager Living Water Fire Protection 1160 McKenzie Road P.O. Box 877 Cantonment, Florida 32533 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:04 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: water storage tank Someone designed a water tank and they can't tell you the output? Who sold that design contract? At 11:18 AM 8/6/2009, you wrote: >I am getting info piecemeal from the engineering firm that is in >charge of the tower. They say they don't >Know what the residual pressure and flow will be when the tower is >completed. We have a sprinkler system going in "next door" to the >tower using the existing water from the old system. However, they >have installed a 4" pipe with a hydrant instead of 6" (many years >ago)and nobody knew until we dug it up. > >Now we are flowing 600 gpm through a 4" pipe to our source and the >calcs are too close for comfort. We are looking for a "guesstimate" >of the available water at the base of the tower without any fittings >or valves. I can add them in the 8" line from the base to the new >tie in point where the systems tie together. We are talking about >needing to pick up 5 to 10 psi not 20 or 30, so as long as we are >close we should be good. > >This really should fall on the EOR, but as is often the case in this >region, if we want to finish the job on time, we have to get an >answer immediately. > >So I can say that I should reasonably be able to expect .156 x 140' >= 22 lbs of loss from the tank to the bottom w/o >fittings....therefore if we say we should reasonably expect 1,500 >gpm at 35 psi? > > >Greg McGahan >Operations Manager > >Living Water Fire Protection >1160 McKenzie Road >P.O. Box 877 >Cantonment, Florida 32533 >(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 >[email protected] > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 9:28 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: water storage tank > >You're asking an open ended question. Sorry for running you around >in circles. > >There are too many unknown variables here that are needed to make >any kind of determination. > >Like has been said, how much pipe, fittings, valves, elevations, >what kind of discharge gpm, etc. etc, etc. > >Plus the value at what tank level, since the tank head will affect >the residual pressure. > >If you go by the flow required to produce a 10 fps velocity out of >NFPA 24 for instance, that flow rate for an 8" would be 1560 gpm. > >If you use cement lined DI pipe at 1560 gpm the pressure drop is >.156 psi/10ft. > >Ina real simplistic format, if you had 20 ft of pipe, static of 70 >psi, flowing 1560 gpm, the line loss equals .313 psi. Use 1560 gpm >and 69.6 psi for the K-factor which comes out to >K=197.8. Naturally the gpm will be slightly less than at the >discharge but that difference would be negligible at these variables. > >This is all nominal since like I said the value will vary depending >on tank level and other unknowns. > > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Specialist >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >[email protected] >http://www.ch2m.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan >Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 9:37 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: water storage tank > >Guys, I know all of the basic hydraulic stuff....I do NOT know the K >factor of an 8" open pipe and don't feel comfortable guessing at >formulas. I went to college and I know there is a formula that will >easily tell you a reasonable expected flow and pressure. Bu that was >a long time ago. > >Greg McGahan >Operations Manager > >Living Water Fire Protection >1160 McKenzie Road >P.O. Box 877 >Cantonment, Florida 32533 >(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 >[email protected] > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:29 AM >To: AFSA >Subject: Re: water storage tank > >That depends on flow rate Greg. Higher flow = higher loss per >ft. Longer run = higher loss at specified flow rate. > > > > >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Greg McGahan" <[email protected]> > >Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 08:06:45 >To: <[email protected]> >Subject: RE: water storage tank > > >I know the static pressure. I need the RESIDUAL pressure and flow >through an open 8" pipe at ground level. > >Greg McGahan >Operations Manager > >Living Water Fire Protection >1160 McKenzie Road >P.O. Box 877 >Cantonment, Florida 32533 >(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 >[email protected] > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 7:28 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: water storage tank > >The formula is: ft of water x .433 = psi > >So for 140 ft of head the approximate psi would be around 60 psi, at >70 ft it would be approximately 30, etc. > >Note that this does not account for the loss through the tank >outlet, vortex plate valves or piping loss. > >Find out what that 8" is. Especially if it's a plastic. Beware of HDPE. > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Specialist >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >[email protected] >http://www.ch2m.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan >Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:18 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: water storage tank > >We have a situation where a new water storage tank is being >installed on a public utility system and I need some help if anyone >can tell me the following: > >New Tank - 140' high > >8" pipe (unknown type) going straight to ground level > >What is a reasonable expected flow and residual pressure? > >Any help would be appreciated. > >Greg McGahan >Operations Manager > >Living Water Fire Protection >1160 McKenzie Road >P.O. Box 877 >Cantonment, Florida 32533 >(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 >[email protected] > > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
