KISS Keep It Simple, Steve. Like picking a 1/2" thread sprinkler to prevent foyer head from being mixed with the 3/4" thread K7.9 EC in the middle of the hotel room.
Advantages and disadvantages- CPVC isn't going to have MIC problems, steel isn't dry-fit (since FITS went by the wayside). Got to understand it all, and balance costs and common sense. We once did a modular complex that was a terrible application- 4,000 gal dry systems, and we're doing mod boxes in galvanized- no, if you're going to do residential competitively, you're using plastic. I'm sure we'll get a few black eyes from folks who either don't care or don't know about compatibility, listing restrictions, etc- and sometimes we're powerless to change things, imagine how hard I had to bite my tongue over one dry system protecting a 3-story student housing building with 158 boxes in it- plus basement. I assumed the controlling GC was going to follow the PE's design concept and then whack em for 6 more DPVs when - oh, try to look surprised- it failed the one minute water delivery. Politically, we couldn't do a thing. Nice for us, bad for many others, only one of the three buildings ever got built, and it was torn down. The other boxes were transformed into similar student housing at other schools, and I know the one is very disillusioned with what they got for the money. One of the problems with having the arsenal of 4,000 heads and numerous piping choices is that we have selection criteria that can compete with best application vrs lowest cost. When there were SSU and SSP and just vertical sidewalls, and pipe was black or galv, it didn't take as long to figure out what you were going to do. 1- 1- 1.25...... glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Muncy Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Incompatible products with CPVC Different products for different uses... and all can be appropriate given differing circumstances. When you compare the amount of CPVC installed to the number of problems related to incompatibilities and environmental stress cracking, the problems are minor - unless of course YOUR job is the one on which a failure has occurred. CPVC has been around long enough and is established enough that it isn't going away any time soon. Other products that seemed great at the time have fallen by the wayside. Some people don't want to use CPVC and only want to work with steel pipe, but you aren't going to put that in single-family homes. Clearly CPVC and PEX are going into homes, and both CPVC and PEX have limitations. Don't forget that PEX has incompatible products too. The scary thing is that incompatibilities can occur in the FUTURE. There is no way to insure that a future product won't create unanticipated problems - and that can't be blamed on the manufacturer. Imagine this scenario.... a steel pipe coating is used successfully with CPVC for years with absolutely no problems. Then the manufacturer changes the composition of the coating to improve the product, but unknown to anyone this introduces an incompatibility with CPVC. Who is to blame? The CPVC manufacturer? The coatings manufacturer? The installer? I'd have to agree that the "list of products compatible with CPVC is far from complete" but that is an on-going process and new products are constantly being added to that list. Frankly the largest problem with CPVC is not that of incompatible products, but is failure to glue all the joints! As more and more jobs use CPVC, that problem is becoming more serious - and training and attention detail are the only solutions to that problem. Although Joe (in note below) didn't specifically address it this way - he introduces an important point. Manufacturers in the fire sprinkler industry need to understand the environment in which they market. If you are going to make glass bulbs, you better do it with the full understanding that the product is durable - that this is the CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY, and guys in white laboratory jackets aren't installing them. Manufacturers of pipe, CPVC, PEX and all other products need to understand their place in the process - they can't ignore the world around them and concentrate solely on their own product. (now getting off my soap box) Steve A. Muncy, CAE - President American Fire Sprinkler Assn. -- FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES! Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org On Nov 2, 2009, at 4:33 PM, Joe Burtell wrote: > Sure seems like CPVC is too fragile for something as serious as fire > protection. The list of compatible products is far from complete. When > Ridgid dark cutting oil is not on the list, seems something is not > right. > > Joe Burtell > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 3:05 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Incompatible products with CPVC > > What is interesting in the case I originally posted this about is > that pipe from 4 different manufacturers was installed on this job. > All of the failures occurred with one manufacturer. I am prevented > from going into any more detail because there is pending litigation. > As soon as I can, I will. > > BTW, this is the same job from my other post where the ITM contractor > showed up for the test without tools. > > "Unwashed", GC? Isn't that a simplification of "the great unwashed" > which I believe was a quote by Spiro Agnew? > > > > > At 04:52 PM 11/2/2009, you wrote: >> Along that line, Steve, I understand from a discussion with peers >> (50 of > em, >> not just our peer group) this Spring that the environmental stress >> frature >> problem is being handled much better than initially. >> >> This was probably THE hottest topic in that discussion - with some >> wanting >> to remain quiet about their problems with ESF, and some quite vocal, > bitter, >> and feeling abandoned by those that could/should provide them >> support. >> >> The damages were tens of millions- nothing to be taken lightly by >> design >> professionals, contractors, GCs/CMs or owners. Imagine a large >> residential >> complex, occupied, with drywall ceilings and cracking pipe. >> >> Understand we've replaced 3 year old Allied galvanized pipe so this >> is not >> intended to be a slam at CPVC in any way, shape or form- we use it >> daily. >> As Mr. Muncy points out, >> "Almost EVERY product has potential problems..." and I'll chop it >> early >> since the problems aren't limited to compatibility- often the >> unwashed > don't >> bother reading the mfr's installation guidelines and install outside >> listings, or even more basic, don't bother to read the code and >> miss the >> basics like interstitial space heads, pump churns over 200 PSI, etc. >> >> If any of you have encountered ESF problems, there's a guy quite >> knowledgeable in the handling of them- and some of the baggage >> that's been >> around, hopefully removed- I could track down for ya. >> >> glc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> Steve Muncy >> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 4:30 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Incompatible products with CPVC >> >> I don't normally weigh in on these issues, but I didn't see a >> response >> to this posting. >> >> Lubrizol (BlazeMaster) has been aggressive in testing products to >> assure compatibility with CPVC. This list of incompatible products is >> much shorter than the listing of compatible products. My >> understanding is that when BlazeMaster tests and puts a product on >> its >> compatibility list, then Lubrizol stands behind their assertion of >> compatibility as long as nothing changes in the composition of that >> product (which is common sense.) >> >> It is wise for any company using CPVC to be aware of incompatible >> products, and reassuring to know what products have been tested and >> listed by Lubrizol as compatible with CPVC. >> >> You can get on the notification list at the Lubrizol web site to get >> updates on new products added to their incompatible and compatible >> lists. >> >> (This isn't a commercial for CPVC - but concerns about >> incompatibility >> should be taken seriously. Almost EVERY product has potential >> problems >> with incompatibility and it is helpful to have a source to check for >> known problems.) >> >> >> >> Steve A. Muncy, CAE - President >> American Fire Sprinkler Assn. -- FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES! >> Dallas, TX >> http://www.firesprinkler.org >> >> >> >> On Oct 29, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Russell wrote: >> >>> I may be the last person on this forum to know this but I felt I >>> should >>> share anyway. This link lists things that are incompatible with >>> CPVC. As it >>> turns out about the only thing it is compatible with is itself! >>> >>> http://www.lubrizol.com/BuildingSolutions/ChemicalCompatibility.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Russell Rewis >>> Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. >>> 107C Hemlock Street >>> Valdosta, Georgia 31601 >>> 229-244-8130 >>> [email protected] >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
