Karen, like George essentially said: wrong is wrong. The designer of record will most likely be ultimately primarily liable for the incorrect choice of design standard. You are best to "run this up the flagpole" before you waste time designing it to an incorrect standard. [Depending on your specific situation, this could be a nice change order for your company...]
An AHJ functions like a traffic cop. If you get in a wreck and the forensics engineer's report determines you were speeding in your car... who is ultimately to blame when you end up in court? I doubt it is the traffic cop [who didn't see you speeding and stop you...]. Do you know what you call a P.E. who passed his licensing exam by the lowest passing score possible? -----------> A P.E.! He could have only been correct 70% of the time in his licensing exam... but he is still able to make mistakes. That is why we are here to check their work and try to eliminate the imperfections. [We aren't 100% perfect either... but two eyes are better than one.]. Every so often I am forced in the course of my job duties to refer a fellow design professional to the licensing board for a major license violation such as practicing outside their area of expertise, negligence, incompetence, etc. Every self-policing licensing profession has a board of peers who keep the herd in line by various means and occasionally "cull the herd" of those who don't deserve to retain their licensure. I highly recommend you check fully into the legality of the NFPA 13D system specified... David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE Engineering ---------------------------------------------------------------- Office of State Fire Marshal 141 Monticello Trail Columbia, SC 29203 Phone: 803.896.9833 Fax: 803.896.9806 Email: [email protected] OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RE: concealed space Wow. Are you consulting with the final authority having jurisdiction? And understand the implications of the word "negligence" as it applies to the registered design professional of record after a faulty design kills someone? I never consider using something totally inappropriate very long since I don't want to face a widow's lawyer with: "So you protected multi-family with single family protection, system was overwhelmed, and the widow's husband and 8 kids died." Yes sir. "So you knew this was inappropriate, having read the titles of the respective standards?" Yes sir. But the inspector said it was okay with him. "Did the deceased say it was ok with him? I guess he really never had a chance to ask, did he?" No sir, he wasn't party to the discussion even when he was alive. "Are you familiar with the formal training of the inspector making the decision?" No, sir, not in detail. I only know he didn't know Jack. "Jack? The deceased was Richard." Jack Sheet, sir, not the deceased. The inspector didn't know jack about codes or water supplies or appropriate systems, that's why I wasn't surprised when he agreed to 13D and saved my customer a lot of money. Until Richard died. Anyway, Karen, I don't know the details of the contract, local codes, building construction, etc. but I'd shy away from taking clean linen from the unwashed and trying to make a purse out of it. It would be a very unusual situation where 13D would be the applicable standard for a school-> apt conversiona dn if someone dies in a fire there, know that I will hunt you down after people die and tell you "I told you so". There was a little group home in NY protected by 13D system that got involved in a fire about a year after opening. People died. Should have been 13 in that case, difficult or improbable to evacuate residents can't get out in 10 minutes. Seriously, I'd suggest digging a little deeper at the risk of annoying you, but otherwise- people could die. Happy Hiolidays! glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Karen Purvis Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RE: concealed space I went back and looked again an I was correct the first time, this will be done as a 13D system. Karen Purvis Senior Designer Facility Systems Consultants 713 South Central Street, Suite 101 Knoxville, TN 37902 ph.865-246-0164 fax 865-246-1084 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Blackwell Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1:02 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [!! SPAM] RE: concealed space I sent a PDF of the table separately but it awaits moderator approval due to exceeding its size... David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE Engineering ---------------------------------------------------------------- Office of State Fire Marshal 141 Monticello Trail Columbia, SC 29203 Phone: 803.896.9833 Fax: 803.896.9806 Email: [email protected] OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Blackwell Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: concealed space What George refers to is a very important aspect of the building code that may be overlooked. The architect's design choices can force you to use a "higher" standard (NFPA 13 or NFPA 13R) system in the building that otherwise falls within the scope of a "lower" standard (NFPA 13R or NFPA 13D) system. The (2006) IBC Code and Commentary Figure 903.3.1.1 contains a useful table for understanding why an architect may specify a higher standard than a sprinkler contractor may think is necessary. David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE Engineering ---------------------------------------------------------------- Office of State Fire Marshal 141 Monticello Trail Columbia, SC 29203 Phone: 803.896.9833 Fax: 803.896.9806 Email: [email protected] OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:20 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: concealed space And you can't use 13R under the 2006 IBC if the design team used the sprinkler increase in order to build it, you can add a story but the SF increase must come from frontage or other, non-sprinkler factors. Doubt this applies to YOUR building as it could also be under the Int'l Existing Building Code. I'D BE AMAZED IF A SCHOOL CONVERTED TO APTS IS ABLE TO BE PROTECTED APPROPRIATELY BY NFPA 13D !!!!!!!! We've done 2 schools and a church converted to apts in the past year, all 13R. There isn't a lot of difference in cost to do it correctly (13R) and if you need to, have em add some 8' deep lintels where the living room ends and a corridor to bedrooms start- you'll not have to flow the corridor heads in that calc with the living/dining/kitchen area. This can get you down to a 2 or 3 head calc, max 4 in 13R. The little country church ended up as a 2-head flow, a challenging 35 GPM at 30 PSI for a water supply- the developer had to change the well pump, big deal. While you may find something on the AFSA site comparing 13r and 13D, the text is available for free reading at www.nfpa.org codes and standards, list of codes and standards, click on 13r, applicable edition in your jurisdiction, and then down at the bottom of the page, click on PREVIEW THIS DOCUMENT and fill out the questionnaire if you aren't logged in already. David offers wise words WRT the IBC impact, although you likely don't have balconies in a school->apt conversion. To ALL my friends on the Forum, best wishes for a thoroughly enjoyable thanksgiving respite. George Church Rowe Sprinkler _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
