Thanks Cecil, Todd, and everybody else-- (please allow me this one time Roland): When I am told "Brad, your job is not rocket science", I say "I know, if it was it would not be so complicated. My job is to generate billings based on delivery to a job site, in a Timely manner, an Approved system of piping and components, Complete, and, it Fits. Do that with Newton's Third Law!" :) And Cecil you would have only one class to offer
-----Original Message----- From: Todd Williams [mailto:t...@fpdc.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calc Area It is nice to know that I am not the only one that over-thinks things. I know Roland likes the world's fastest tractors, but you do have to beware the VW lest they become a Toyota (and this from a G1 Prius owner). T At 09:05 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote: >Brad and everybody else.... > > > >OK..... I'll bite. It is amazing what can happen when you are busy >for a few days.... > > > >First. I know Roland is trying hard to be a nice guy (and not jump >all over you guys).... but... what the hell are you thinking?!?!?! > > > >Bob's dead, so I know this thread won't actually kill him..... > > > >USE the remote area size that you select from the density/area >curves to determine the length of the remote area. No adjustment >necessary. Unless of course I am competing with you.... then YOU... >MUST use the remote area that you actually put down on paper..... > > > >STOP IT!! The length of the remote area must be at least as long as >this number: > > > >1.2 x sq rt A > > > >That's it! > > > >A: is the remote area you choose from the area desity curves. Draw >a polyline that is exactly that long from the far corner of the >building (if this is how your building is so arranged) and if you >pass the midpoint of two sprinklers, then go to the next. If you >are short of the midpoint...it's all good! > > > >These days, you CANNOT divide by spacing, because we don't use a >"spacing" for all of the sprinklers in a typical remote area. As >Roland said, that's a CASUAL way to figure out if you are close.... > > > >Next..... or second, adjust C-Factors?!?!?!?!? STOP IT!!!! If your >building has been around for more than 30 years, please.... feel >free. C-Factors are based on 20 yr old pipe and they work fine for >nearly every building I have ever worked in. > > > >However, with a nod to the mad wizard (Scot), if an engineer >suspects anything and asks you to do it.... DO IT!!! And (with a nod >to the scalpel wielding KW) SHUT UP!!!! > > > >Brad, I think someone got in your head and said that this was a good >thing. It is definitely more conservative and that is not a bad >thing. Roland often speaks of Lamborghinis vs. Volkwagons. If you >can afford to keep driving the Lamborghini, keep on keepin >on. However, I am selling VW's and I am gonna sell way more cars >that way. And my customers will not only be happy..... they'll be alive!!! > > >And finally, a nod to Professor Greenman and the incredible work he >does..... we are going to rock this industry as we change the way >people learn (Ron has some great ideas!!). I hope that everyone >will soon hire designers that have a degree in Sprinkler System Technology. > > > >I'll figure out how to get George and other folks that are getting >old..... into another email sometime.... but we DO start a new >online Hydraulics Class soon (New Jersey Chapter is getting a 10% >discount on tuition)..... > > > >Thanks to Steve Muncy and his cru that allow me to keep poppin' in.... > > > >It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of >the NFPA 13 Committee on Installation Criteria, and has not been >processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA >Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be >considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA, >nor any of their technical committees. > >Sincerely, > > >Cecil Bilbo >Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology >Champaign, IL > >217-363-2460 >www.sprinkleracademy.com > > > > > > From: bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:22:32 -0500 > > > > So, Cecil, should I feel bad about leaving a box or 2 of heads off remote > > lines or not? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: George Church [mailto:for...@ptd.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 4:12 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > Y'all REALLY REALLY need to sign up for one of Cecil's online classes if we > > spend this much time talking about how we lay out the MRA. If > you're unsure, > > or the code changed and you didn't, maybe it's time to go back to > school. No > > shame in making sure you do it correctly from this crowd! > > > > And ya know the inspector and plan reviewer aren't gonna catch these things > > 98% of the time. So you'll either "get away" with a mistake, or you'll be > > defending your methodology in court, with your design guru(s) > sitting beside > > you, facing the best forensic engineering talent money can buy. Remember, > > they may be looking to pin a couple to several million dollar loss on YOU > > and your insurance carrier. And if you carry $2m in coverage, have a $3m > > loss, guess what happens to your house, business, car, etc? If you've still > > got assets to protect, I'd be careful to do it correctly. That MINIMUM > > consensus standard isn't the end all, be all. It's a MINIMUM standard. > > > > glc > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 3:44 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > I was shocked when first confronted with the idea 8 years ago--- let us see > > what others have to say... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ParsleyConsulting [mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:35 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: Re: Calc Area > > > > Brad, > > > > I was intrigued by your remarks about having to re-evaluate the minimum > > length of the remote area parallel to the branch lines if you were to > > end up with a remote area of a different size than where the standard > > initially had you start. > > > > I can't find anything in my copy of the NFPA-13 handbook, or the > > Hydaulic Design text book by Pat Brock from Oklahoma State which even > > remotely suggests this is a requirement. > > > > I've never done this, and I want to be sure I haven't missed something > > critical. I need to be sure I understand what you're saying, because > > for me the implications are huge for the plans I review on a daily basis > > for a number of AHJ's. > > > > Are you stating that if in order to meet the requirements for a 1,500 > > square foot remote area I were to end up with a remote area of 1,600 > > square feet I then have to make an evaluation to make sure that the > > length of the remote area parallel to the branch lines is at least 1.2 x > > sqrt of 1,600? In effect, I need at least 48'-0", not the 46'-5" I > > started with? If that's your position, can you give me some idea of how > > you determined that such an additional requirement is necessary? > > > > I've got to tell you that if that is truly the case, I'm in seriously > > deep trouble, as I've been doing calculations and plan reviews based on > > a flawed premise, and that makes me really nervous. > > > > Can you give me/us some background on how you came to that conclusion? > > > > I'd really appreciate the help. > > -- > > > > PARSLEY CONSULTING > > > > Ken Wagoner, SET > > > > 760.745.6181 voice > > > > 760.745.0537 fax > > > > parsleyconsult...@cox.net <mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net> e-mail > > > > www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > > > > > Brad wrote: > > > I don't think this is about density at all > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: A.P.Silva [mailto:silva...@shaw.ca] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:13 PM > > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com > > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > > > If I understand what you are saying, it may not be correct either. If you > > > use the density corresponding to 1500 SF, then you don't have > to check the > > > length again. If you use the density for 1640 SF, then you are right. > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad > > > Sent: April 20, 2010 1:02 PM > > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; b...@firebyknight.com > > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > > > Why average anything--the actual dimensions are right there-- the thing I > > am > > > stressing is if you end up with 1640 SF area USED, go back and make sure > > 49' > > > does not put you more than half way to ANOTHER head on the line-- the 1.2 > > > rule is for area USED, not minimum required area. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: A.P.Silva [mailto:silva...@shaw.ca] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:51 PM > > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; b...@firebyknight.com > > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > > > The critical factor is the length of the design area. Not the number of > > > heads. For 1500 RA and 1.2 shape factor this is approx. 46.5 feet. So > > taking > > > your example, it will be 5 heads per line, whichever side is the most > > > remote. Your method will work, but maybe not always. Say > substitute 6' for > > > 7' in your example. If the most remote area is the 8' side, now it is 6 > > > heads on the line. If you use your method and take 5 heads per line the > > > minimum length of the design area will not be correct. > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight > > > Sent: April 20, 2010 12:30 PM > > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > > > George, > > > The way I do this is to average the lengths between heads. For example, > > you > > > have a branch line with 6 heads. They are spaced 8', 12', 9', 11', 7', & > > > 10' apart. The average will be 9.5' applying the 1.2 rule (assuming 1500 > > > sf) you will have 4.89 (round up to 5) heads per line. If you use the > > > greatest distance of 12' you end up with only 3.87 (round up to 4) heads > > per > > > line. If you chose to use the least dimension of 7' you will end up with > > > 6.63 (round up to 7) heads per line. 7 seems like to many and 4 looks > > like > > > not enough. This is why I average the distance between heads in a case > > such > > > as yours. > > > > > > Bob Knight, CET > > > 1660 Hill Rd > > > Melba, Idaho 83641 > > > (208) 318-3057 > > > (208) 495-2057 fax > > > b...@firebyknight.com > > > www.firebyknight.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George > > Medina > > > Jr > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 12:41 AM > > > To: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org > > > Subject: Calc Area > > > > > > > > > If I am calculating a tree type system using the area/design method, and > > > have several different lengths between sprinklers on a branch line. Would > > I > > > use the longest length to determine the amount of sprinklers on a branch > > > line. I have always used an average (which I've probably been wrong all > > > these years). > > > > > > 1.2vdesign area > > > S > > > S= Distance between sprinklers on branch line > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.2vdesign area > > > S > > > S= Distance between sprinklers on branch line > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > George Medina Jr. > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2820 - Release Date: 04/19/10 > > > 00:31:00 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
